*** Opened channel log for #adf at 2018-05-01 7:37:56 PM [19:37] *** Owlhawk (Owlhawk@sorcery-hfsa73.cable.rogers.com) has joined #adf [19:37] *** Topic is: Welcome to the chat for Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship (ADF). Find out more about us at http://www.adf.org [19:37] *** Topic set by ChanServ!services@services.sorcery.net on Mon Aug 3 8:55 AM [19:37] *** Mode change [+o Owlhawk] on #adf by ChanServ [19:55] *** Corc (gaarik@sorcery-2b7iuv.res.rr.com) has joined #adf [19:56] Evening. [19:56] *** Corc is now known as gaarik [19:57] *** gaarik is now known as Corc [19:58] *** Guest39087 (rovena@sorcery-l0ckt2.hnremote.net) has joined #adf [19:58] *** Guest39087 is now known as Rovena [19:58] *** Mode change [+o Rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [20:00] Evening all. [20:00] [Owlhawk] hi [20:00] Hello [20:03] How is everyone doing? [20:04] Having lovely weather here [20:07] How are you doing tonight? [20:07] *** Thexalon (Mibbit@sorcery-a890t0.res.rr.com) has joined #adf [20:08] Not too bad. We're having some warm weather over here; based on the weather last Sunday, I thought I'd need a jacket, but no, I need shorts. *laughs* [20:08] Hello Thexalon [20:08] Hello, Thexalon! [20:08] Howdy howdy! Weather was 75F and sunny at Tredara today. Great day to be out and working on the site. [20:08] Understaqnd that. Here we say if you don't like the weather wait 5 minutes [20:08] *** idx (idx@sorcery-thlsjp.ih5l.mtsj.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #adf [20:08] Sounds like it was [20:08] Hello everyone [20:09] Happy Beltane [20:09] Hello HOw is the Crescent City [20:09] Happy Beltane to you too [20:09] *** AmyNG (Mibbit@sorcery-81p.mk1.7.129.IP) has joined #adf [20:09] *** AmyNG (Mibbit@sorcery-81p.mk1.7.129.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [20:09] Happy Beltaine, although I should point out today is probably not astronomical Beltaine. [20:09] Getting hot, how are things up there? [20:10] Eh, legal Beltaine? [20:10] Beautiful1 [20:10] Bylaws say so [20:10] Well happy Beltane-ish then lol [20:11] A lot of people celebrated Saturday and yesterday [20:11] Our grove is celebrating next weekend, one reason we were out working on the site today. [20:12] Also doing prep work for Wellspring. [20:12] We are doing ours on Saturday due to site scheduling problems [20:12] Thexalon, are you Stonecreed Grove? [20:12] *with [20:12] Yes, I'm Stone Creed. [20:12] Heh. Small world. [20:13] Why do you say that? [20:13] One reason I like to pop on here in the spring is in case Wellspring-related questions come up, since they sometimes do. [20:14] I'm in Cleveland. I'd be going to Stone Creed if it weren't for a lack of a ride. [20:14] I'm still trying to figure out the busing system again, and I don't think it goes out to Madison. [20:15] You can ask on the grove page and see if someone's willing to pick you up from somewhere. [20:15] (The grove FB page, if you're on it.) If not, send where you're coming from to seniordruid@stonecreed.org and we'll see what we can do. [20:15] Hm. Maybe next rite, then. Already have something going for this one. Same day, too. [20:16] Friday night is also our blessing rite in Bedford, you should stop by for that if you can make it. [20:18] Friday? I just checked on the site; says the 3rd... is that a typo? [20:18] Yes, it is. Sorry, Blessing rites are always Fridays. Let me correct that. [20:18] Ok. [20:19] And corrected on our site. Thank you for pointing that out. [20:20] Cool. Maybe I could make that. [20:21] *** idx (idx@sorcery-thlsjp.ih5l.mtsj.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [20:21] And it's a block away from bus #76, if that helps you with getting there. [20:22] I was just looking that up. Thanks. [20:22] You know how late it runs? [20:22] (the rite) [20:23] *** idx (idx@sorcery-thlsjp.ih5l.mtsj.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #adf [20:23] Welcome back, idx. [20:24] Ty [20:24] What did I miss [20:24] Discussing a Cleveland-based person getting to a Stone Creed rite. [20:24] Just a message about the bus. [20:24] Which I appreciate. Sorry for hijacking the discussion... [20:24] Corc Typically 10:30 or 11 or so. It depends a bit on how many are there. We do start pretty promptly at 8:30 though. [20:26] Hijack away [20:26] Sweet. Got that written down, if I can make it, I will. I miss everyone that I used to know there, AJ, Ian, a few others. [20:27] I’m mostly spectating tonight [20:27] Haven't seen them since 2008. [20:31] AJ, unfortunately, you can only see in ritual. [20:31] I heard from a friend. Still miss him, though. [20:32] *** Danicia (danicia@sorcery-40jqkl.click-network.com) has joined #adf [20:32] Hello, Danicia. [20:32] Howdy [20:32] Hello [20:33] Hello [20:35] So, anyone have a topic other than Beltaine? [20:37] That is fit for public consumption? [20:38] Not really. There's been some good discussions about the DP which might be a good topic? Of folks who don't feel like a "real" Druid if they're not working on it. Or that it can seem classist and not accessible. [20:38] That's one of the discussions I've been following. But I'm open to any topic. [20:39] Well, I've been involved in those discussions, so I think my viewpoint is out there already. But what's your take on the issue? [20:40] I’m just spectating to keep things consumable 😀 [20:41] Might I ask why people are finding the DP classist and not accessible in the first place? [20:42] It's not my viewpoint, but from what I can tell, it's seen as a big barrier to those who didn't do a lot of essay-writing and such in their academic training. [20:43] I know the aforementioned AJ always had a tough time doing the academic work, even though he was a fantastic magician and leader. [20:43] *** idx (idx@sorcery-thlsjp.ih5l.mtsj.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [20:43] *** idx (idx@sorcery-thlsjp.ih5l.mtsj.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #adf [20:43] Lag [20:44] The problem is that if they can't do the DP work then they can't handle the advanced study progeams. [20:44] The new hearth study program may help with that problem. [20:45] Don’t you have to pay for that? [20:45] All study programs are free to members of the organization. [20:45] No fees just annual membership [20:48] I've been involved in the envisioning stage at least of developing the hearth study program. The goal there is really to get to the point where people are comfortable doing the religion in their home altar. [20:49] *** Lulu (Mibbit@sorcery-eke1v5.tn.comcast.net) has joined #adf [20:49] But without necessarily having all the academic background you get by doing the DP. [20:49] Greetings everyone! [20:50] Hello hello [20:50] How is everyone? [20:50] Alive and kickin' as usual. [20:52] Being forced to multitask. Love life. [20:53] So, how bad are we talking? A little tutoring getting folks through, or are we having large swaths of incoming DP students with no basics? [20:53] Hello [20:54] I mean, I've been out of the academic community a while, but I didn't think it was that bad... [20:55] There are plenty of members who never went to college, and some that didn't graduate high school. [20:57] I think it’s the same problem it always will be: life. It’s just something you have to make time for whether it’s getting up earlier to making sure you do it right before bed [20:58] If can be intimidating if you aren't confident in your skills. [20:58] So long as they have a few resources to be able to learn the basics, that's a fine attitude. If they don't, though, it's a different situation. [21:00] Some are living in situations that aren't pagan friendly so it is hard to do devotions and rituals. [21:02] *nod* Now that's a situation I understand, been there, but I wouldn't have called the DP inaccessible because I couldn't do the work... Am I in the wrong, there? [21:03] I don’t think it’s intimidating because you can work at your own pace. I do however think Druidry can at times be difficult because the system isn’t always easy to understand especially if your studying alone [21:04] Well, no religious system is really "easy" to understand. [21:05] I think the program is just a good way to help the solitaries. It’s kind of a paradox when you think about it, you joined a large organization just to operate on your own [21:05] In school/university, the deadlines are set for you. With the DP you have to set your own deadlines and not everyone is good at following through. [21:06] I've always figured that solitaries had a much rougher time of it than folks in groves. Even small groves give you some more experienced folks to learn from. [21:08] I agree. Groups give you moral support as well. [21:08] We try to help by offering mentors. [21:08] Thexalon: you are right but I think if people find their niche and stick to it, it becomes easy. If you love to sing obviously you should be a bard and not a healer. If you like to drink, you should probably stick to brewing as opposed to liturgy [21:09] Nobody said you had to stick to one thing. [21:09] I just think solitaries who are new to Paganism and Druidry have a tougher time figuring this kind of stuff out [21:09] *** Lulu (Mibbit@sorcery-eke1v5.tn.comcast.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:10] No, but it’s a good place to start and if your doing what you like or love then the rest will come with time in my opinion [21:12] Where you end up is up to you 😀 [21:13] But as always, there’s going to be a lot of opinions [21:14] *** Lulu (Mibbit@sorcery-eke1v5.tn.comcast.net) has joined #adf [21:15] That may be true, idx, but there is the fact that folks are doing this in addition to 48-52 hour work weeks, or going to school full-time. Just working with a friend who was learning magic, they had a Hel of a time keeping the schedule, not because they're lazy, but because of work and other obligations. Sometimes, life intervenes. Where's the line? [21:16] My thinking on this is: Just do what you can do as far as piety goes. [21:16] Don't beat yourself up for not doing more. [21:17] I just started the DP myself. [21:17] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-l0ckt2.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [21:17] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-l0ckt2.hnremote.net) has joined #adf [21:18] *** Mode change [+o Rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [21:18] Lulu, how are you finding it so far? Any questions we can answer? [21:18] Sorry, Thexalon, where I was going with that is that I can understand the argument that the DP might be intimidating to some, and those were the reasons why. [21:19] There is no actual schedule for the DP. You ain't do it in less than 11 months but you can take as long as you want. Some of us took years [21:20] Trust me, I know life happens. I just try to encourage just doing a few minutes a day. A page a Day can really help [21:21] I'm sort of in an odd situation .. . I left religion some years ago. I am a Romany woman. I have always been very religiously and spiritually anxious and I've always had trouble finding spiritual comfort. I was raised Christian, then I left Christianity for Hinduism. Being Romani, I felt a natural love and acceptance within Hinduism. [21:21] But Rovena is right, it’s at your own pace. So as long as you can make time somewhen and get to the end, well I guess that’s all that matters [21:21] Then my life took a turn and I left all religion all together. Many, many, many years later I decided to get back into my spirituality. I found ADF. And, oddly enough it has brought me full circle, back to Hinduism. So, although I am working the DP. [21:22] , I am doing so as a Hindu. I also apologize for all of the weird mistakes in my messages. I am using voice to text. [21:23] I am only on week 3, right now. I reworked the first oath with little to no problem [21:24] Sounds like it's working out. One thing that would be really interesting for someone like you to do is comparing and contrasting modern Hinduism with ancient Indo-European religion. [21:25] I have actually thought about that. I thought about doing a comparative mythology between folk Hinduism and non Hindu folk Indian religions, [21:25] With other info European traditions as well [21:26] In particular, differences between Hinduism and Vedism. [21:26] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-l0ckt2.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [21:26] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-l0ckt2.hnremote.net) has joined #adf [21:26] *** Mode change [+o Rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [21:27] That would be interesting. Separating Vedic influences on Hinduism from Dravidian and Adivasi influences [21:27] Wb Rovena [21:28] Sounds good, Lulu. [21:28] I have been trying to understand the differences myself. [21:28] Seriously, that sounds potentially really cool. Maybe an Oak Leaves article or workshop once you've really sorted it out. [21:28] Theyre very blurred. It all runs together so much [21:29] I'd be interested in reading an article on the similarities and differences. [21:33] Sounds like a good read [21:36] Alright I’m heading out have a good night everyone and happy Beltane [21:36] Be safe [21:37] You too night 😀 [21:37] *** idx (idx@sorcery-thlsjp.ih5l.mtsj.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [21:38] Well, I admit to being a little behind the times, what's this hearth culture study program you were talking about earlier? [21:38] (unless someone wants to continue the earlier conversation?) [21:38] *** Lulu (Mibbit@sorcery-eke1v5.tn.comcast.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:38] There is an effort underway to write a "hearthkeeper" program that would be a pre-DP option. [21:39] It is just a proposal at the moment. [21:39] It would focus on establishing a home altar and regularly performing core-order rites. [21:39] It is for those who don't want or aren't ready for the DP but want a better grounding in their particular hearth culture. [21:39] I see. Interesting. [21:40] *** Lulu (Mibbit@sorcery-eke1v5.tn.comcast.net) has joined #adf [21:40] Good evening! [21:40] Hello Mouse [21:40] Good evening! [21:42] I forgot today was ADF-IRC day, until I got back here and saw the window full of people saying thngs. [21:42] ...things. [21:43] We have been chatty tonight. Good conversations [21:44] *nod* [21:45] *nods in agreement* [21:46] Out of curiosity, anyone else finished the ADF Structure, Customs, and Policy class? [21:47] *remove else. Typo. [21:48] It has come up in my study programs [21:48] Has not [21:48] Okay. [21:48] What program is it part of? [21:48] I don't think so. Which course is it in? [21:48] CTP Prelim. [21:49] Ah, I see it. What's the question? [21:50] Part 9 states, "Describe why we make Praise Offerings..." and so forth and then asks to "Be sure to describe this in both solitary practice and in two or more Groves' practices." Am I to understand that they want you to visit other groves there, or are they asking for hearth culture, or what are they looking for? [21:51] Not sure what they are asking. [21:52] YouTube has rituals to watch [21:52] SO you don't have to travel [21:52] Yeah, though I don't need that, I have experience with a few groves, I'm just a little confused what they might be looking for. [21:53] Just want to make sure I get the essay done properly. [21:53] That would probably be a question for the CTP preceptor. I'm not sure who that is right now. [21:53] *** Lulu (Mibbit@sorcery-eke1v5.tn.comcast.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:53] Fair. Well, that taps me out for topics and questions... sorry. [21:53] You might want to have a mentor who can help with this stuff. [21:54] I'll email my reviewer, perhaps; if he has time, he's the one looking things over, he would probably know. Thanks. [21:54] Just didn't want to bother him if I didn't have to. [21:55] If you are on Facebook, you could ask on the Advanced Studies group [21:56] I applied to that group, haven't gotten a response back, though. [21:59] If you don't get a response in two days or so, contact the adminstrator. [22:00] *nod* I will, thank you. [22:03] Gah. Sorry. Got pulled on a call [22:03] It happens to us all. [22:06] And it looks like there has been good discussion! :) [22:06] I like the idea of the hearth program. [22:07] It would serve the needs of one group of members. [22:07] The expectation is that you already know how to do things like set up and altar and all kinds of things. [22:07] Serving our members is what it is all about. [22:08] One of the things we'e talked about before was how to get people more involved. And if there are a lot of people who are members and not involved, maybe it's because there's not an introductory casual program to get you started. [22:08] We definitely have members who are totally new to paganism in any form. [22:09] I mean, I can read, but don't really have the context. "Here's a good ritual" "Okay, but great, what does it mean? Where do I get things for an altar?" [22:09] Yah, I'm in the midrange thing. There's a LOT for me to learn, and I've pretty much forgotten everything I know about ADF (I also have memory issues). [22:10] I don't have a lot of knowledge about writing essays [22:10] so that part seems overwhelming :D [22:11] I am constantly looking for new stuff for my altar and for my grove's ritual box. [22:12] Most recent find: skull shot glasses [22:12] Ooo, that sounds cool. [22:12] I would love to see books for druidry that were accessible like these: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/964366.Beltane [22:13] That old series :) [22:15] I think Ian has a few books kind of like that on his site. Well, sort of. [22:15] He used to. [22:16] Basic druidry, basic druid magic. [22:20] Well, shoot, can't find it now. Doesn't really help. [22:24] Ah, found it. Not really a series, though. I apologize. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/tredara [22:25] He does have several books published. [22:25] Yeah. Couldn't find the one I was thinking of, though. Sacred Fire, Holy Well? [22:26] I have that here somewhere [22:27] The question remains, there are a lot of resources out there, but how do we get that information out to where it needs to be? I know for me, when I was learning, my old rite group had a whole library of books. That's how I learned, about ADF as well as Wicca and general Paganism. [22:27] With more resources, why does it feel less accessible? [22:28] But many people aren't near group and postal costs make shipping books costly [22:29] True, and part of my point. [22:30] So how do you see fixing it? [22:32] Unfortunately, not much. I know for me, I've been putting myself out in the community basically letting folk know I'm pagan, and offering to lend my books whenever needed. But again, that's one person, one group. I ended up building a rite group out in my former area when I was doing that, and that's great, but it only reaches so many. [22:33] I have had a problem with books never being returned. [22:34] I've been working on a general document on Neopagan Animism and I'm considering just self-publishing, just putting it on a website somewhere and directing anyone there that asks. [22:34] That could help. But again, that's one person, one group, one set of information. [22:35] I've had that problem, as well... I'm still missing some of my gnostic scriptures because of that. [22:39] And even so, the website is a questionable thing. ADF has a site, a ton of the articles are available for anyone to view. [22:40] Very true [22:41] Yet I've still had a lot of people ask about basic, accessible resources. So what makes Pagan websites feel inaccessible? I think answering that question would go a long way to fixing that problem, because I never found it that way. [22:41] ADF's site was the first accessible one I'd found. My first ritual was one I got off the ADF site years ago. [22:42] It was a Norse Yule rite, if memory serves. [22:42] Corc, What does `accessible' mean as you're using it here? [22:43] For me, accessible means: easy to find the information I'm looking for and not too difficult to utilize in private practice. [22:43] Because as applied to websites, I would usually take it to mean things like "screen-reader compatible" or "large-font available".... [22:44] *nod* I see what you're saying. No, I mean information that doesn't take too much navigation to find. [22:45] My first guess would be that there's a negative correlation between inclinations towards paganism and good writing skills. (Fortunately, far from perfect negative correlation, as a few outstanding authors make clear....) [22:45] As I stated previously, friends of mine curious about the Pagan path came to me asking about resources. I directed them to the ADF site, and their response was the information was not easy to find at all. [22:46] Well, do the ADF webpages talk about paganism in general, or onl ya bout the ADF flavour? (That's a real question; I am not familiar enough with ADF's webpages to answer it myself - the Web and I have a relationship of mutual hostility....) [22:47] That is a good point. [22:48] Not that there's anything wrong with just focusing on their own branch of the paganism tree, but it is only part of the answer for someone looking for an overview, such as a newbie trying to figure out which path resonates most. [22:49] Agreed. I hardly even thought of that. When we do rite, it's fairly close to ADF style; I just figured the information would make sense in that context. [22:50] I think the accessible part, for me, is that it's not intuitive to find information. It's not user-friendly, nor welcoming. It looks old and outdated. I know that is being revamped, and that's good. [22:51] Rather, it's a combination of things. Because it's not user-friendly and easy to navigate, it's less welcoming. [22:52] You don't *need* to be scholarly to be in ADF. But it "reads" as academic only. [22:52] So, if you're new, it's overwhelming and there's not a "This is how you get started" in an easy digestible way. [22:53] And if you don't have a Grove supporting you, yeah, that can be an issue. [22:53] Yeah. [22:54] If I didn't already know ADF from when I was a member years and years ago, it would be super difficult to be doing this on my own. [22:54] If you find something on the web site you need to copy downb the location as you may not be able to find it again. [22:54] Heck, it took months just to find out my most local Grove to me is six people who sometimes meet [23:00] It seems to be more than just an ADF problem, too. It feels like it could be a Pagan problem, based on the stories others of my old rite group had. [23:01] Granted, that's hearsay information, but still, there it is. [23:01] I think it is a common problem. I have heard some of the U Us complain about their websites as well. [23:03] So I guess, to echo Rovena's question and rephrase, what can we do that we're not already doing, that we might not be aware of? [23:05] And to be fair, I don't have an answer yet. I've been racking my brain for that one. [23:05] The larger the membership base gets the more diverse the members' needs and expectations. The more diverse, the harder to meet them. [23:06] True. [23:06] What satisfies one might be totally unsatisfactory to another. [23:06] Still, I like the Hearth idea as it's something not intimidating and welcoming. Heck, the word itself is. [23:07] Yes, it would be helpful to many. Can't see any downside to it. [23:08] I agree. [23:09] Don't know how far they have gotten but I am sure the election slowed them down and now we are into the festival season which always slows things down. [23:21] We folks, I am going to pack it in. Catch y'all next time. [23:21] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-l0ckt2.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Quit:] [23:31] *** Danicia (danicia@sorcery-40jqkl.click-network.com) has quit IRC [Quit:] [23:33] I think I'll turn in, as well. Have a pleasant evening, everyone. [23:33] *** Corc (gaarik@sorcery-2b7iuv.res.rr.com) has left #adf ["Leaving"] *** Closed channel log for #adf at 2018-05-02 6:42:44 AM