*** Opened channel log for #adf at 2018-04-24 7:40:37 PM [19:40] *** Owlhawk (Owlhawk@sorcery-hfsa73.cable.rogers.com) has joined #adf [19:40] *** Topic is: Welcome to the chat for Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship (ADF). Find out more about us at http://www.adf.org [19:40] *** Topic set by ChanServ!services@services.sorcery.net on Mon Aug 3 8:55 AM [19:40] *** Mode change [+o Owlhawk] on #adf by ChanServ [19:44] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has joined #adf [19:44] *** Mode change [+o rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [20:01] *** Drum (Mibbit@sorcery-jshtf8.sub-174-233-15.myvzw.com) has joined #adf [20:01] Hey there! [20:02] Hello! [20:02] How are you tonight? [20:03] [Owlhawk] morning [20:03] Hello stranger! [20:04] [Owlhawk] ;) [20:04] :) [20:08] Good luck on Gael Kin Rovena! [20:09] Thank you. So far it looks like just two of us in the race. [20:09] Right [20:10] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has joined #adf [20:10] Quick question - what is a good time to come to La.? [20:10] Hello Debbrah [20:10] Hi [20:11] Hi! [20:11] Hard to say. We are having rain right now. Starting in May or June we will start heating up. We don't usually cool down much til October. [20:12] October it is! [20:12] :) [20:12] AUgust and September is often triple digit [20:12] Cool. [20:12] Look forward to it. [20:14] Me too! [20:14] How are you Deborah? [20:15] Doing pretty well. Getting warm here, and dreading AC season. [20:16] How is everyone else? [20:16] I am good! Thanks for asking [20:17] Enjoying a nice day. Weekend is looking good, too. [20:19] Rovena and Owlhawk are extraordinary hosts [20:19] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [20:19] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has joined #adf [20:20] *** Mode change [+o rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [20:22] What can we tell you about ADF? [20:24] Me? I've been a bit focused on some health issues lately (sorting out some details on my brainish tumor) and so a bit behind on questions [20:25] That is ok [20:25] Blessings to your for better health [20:25] Thanks [20:26] I am trying to generate some interest in avonce a month Healing working that anyone who wishes to cam join in [20:27] Could be interesting. Any particular methods? [20:29] We get together on a given date and time and do our own methods with a list of names [20:31] I'm interested, and I bet my husband would be as well [20:32] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [20:32] I hope to have something in place in May [20:32] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has joined #adf [20:32] Sorry technical problems [20:35] I am interested [20:35] I think the combined energy will be very helpful [20:39] Interesting experiment at least [20:41] Anyone read anything interesting lately? [20:43] Haven't had much time to read. [20:43] Next few weeks I have 3 quarterly reports to do and study questions to work on. [20:44] I started a book called “The Wood Wife” [20:45] Yay Rovena! [20:45] Teri Wildling? I haven't read anything of her's in years, but I remember liking her stuff [20:46] :) [20:46] I JUST started it [20:47] *** NathanLarge (Mibbit@sorcery-j83dm6.res.rr.com) has joined #adf [20:47] Hello Nathan [20:47] hello all [20:48] Hello Nathan! [20:48] If you like it, you might try Uprooted by Naomi Novik [20:48] thank you! [20:48] https://smile.amazon.com/Uprooted-Naomi-Novik-ebook/dp/B00KUQIU7O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1524617275&sr=8-1&keywords=uprooted+naomi+novik [20:49] *** Thexalon (Mibbit@sorcery-a890t0.res.rr.com) has joined #adf [20:50] Hello Thexalon [20:50] Howdy, everybody! [20:50] Hello Thex [20:50] So, what conversation did I just arrive at? [20:51] Read anything good lately? [20:51] hi Thex, just got here myself [20:51] Books and blessings [20:51] Well, in the "self-serving" category, my grove recently put together a new Book of Rites. [20:51] Open to new conversations too [20:51] nice [20:52] It includes a bunch of our high day scripts, songs & chants, and some general rituals. [20:53] Awesome! [20:53] references are always good. Online, print, both? [20:54] Print only. [20:54] Available at Wellspring? [20:54] Should be at Wellspring. [20:54] I will say one advantage of Stone Creed practice of not regularly doing newly written rites is that we can do things like that. [20:55] And we all benefit from that :) [20:57] At some point, I may offer to compile Raven & Carrion's corpus of work (pun deliberate). [20:57] That would be grand [20:57] haha [20:57] That would br great [20:58] Always good to haebeus corpus [20:58] The more the merrier. We make these books mostly so we don't have to hunt down scripts from years past. [20:58] Practical [20:59] And more [20:59] It would also be practical in our case so that there's historical precedent for attribution. [21:01] Something I've tripped over a time or two. Helps in your case, too, since people carry snippets around and don't know where they got the original. [21:01] Well, we don't actually credit the authors specifically, so any citations would just be to the grove. [21:02] That's important because many rites have many different contributors. [21:02] These groves have a richness of history and liturgy that needs to live on [21:02] I figure that's the authors' call, yes, especially if it's collaborative [21:03] Separating out Ian's words from AJ Gooch's words from Sue's words to Steph Gooch's words from my words from ... would be very daunting indeed. [21:04] I suppose we haven't had as many that were a complete blend. Usually just one liturgist, sometimes soliciting parts [21:04] A general acknowledgement at the front could be a nice way to recognize contributors without trying to tease the rites apart [21:05] Stone Creed is blessed with a great many people who can write rituals. But there's a lot of building on what already exists. [21:07] It's at the point now where at least some of the authors are lost to the mists of time. Part of having a grove that's lasted as long as ours. [21:08] True [21:08] [Owlhawk] Tht's blessing Thex [21:09] I will say I hope all of our groves get to the point where traditions have outlasted the people who created them. [21:09] Kind of what I mean, we might be able to preserve some attribution, like Isaura's songs, before the credit is forgotten. [21:10] Up to a point, I understand caring about credit. But I also kind of like how it's the grove's tradition, and about the work, and not about anybody's individual contributions. [21:10] When credit is forgotten, it becomes “traditional” [21:10] My understanding of "tradition" has always been "We don't remember when we started this". [21:11] Or where it came from [21:12] Even better. [21:12] Or even why we did it. [21:13] Lol [21:14] “We’ve always done it that way” [21:14] ;) [21:14] Exactly. [21:15] And it's good for the tradition-breakers, too. "This is totally new!" "No, we've done it before, try again." [21:15] Which is why everyone hops on one foot while pouring offerings--no one remembering it was from that one time the bottle dropped... [21:15] :P [21:16] DebbrahFoxveil Good idea, I hadn't thought of that. [21:18] Lol [21:18] As far as blessings go, also included is our baby blessing and as prayer for the deceased. We've needed both. [21:21] The two ends of the pole of life [21:22] And speaking of Raven, I recommend stopping by the Tredara ancestor mound next time you're here, NathanLarge. He (along with everyone else there) likes visitors. [21:23] I miss Raven [21:23] Huge [21:23] of course [21:24] sad I only met him once [21:24] Earrach of Pittsburgh is also there. And AJ Gooch. And a couple of other Stone Creed folks, Ray Liptak and Caitlin Clingman. [21:25] I saw he, Carrion, and Morrighan do things together that would crack the sky [21:25] Wow. I unfortunately never got to meet him. [21:26] He is still there at Tredara, working his magic [21:27] You're right. More precisely, I never got to meet him on this side of the veil. [21:28] Wow. Step away and everyone shows up. [21:28] Welcome back! [21:28] Hi, people! [21:28] Hi [21:28] Hi Mouse [21:28] Hi! [21:29] Not that I have a whole lot to say, mind you. :) [21:30] How about questions to ask? [21:31] Hmm, not really many of those at the moment either. I've got some stuff to let rattle around in my head (and heart) for a while. [21:33] *** idx (idx@sorcery-entomb.qkca.kmal.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #adf [21:33] Though, actually...okay, here's one. I've asked a few local people, but I'd be interested in any reactions you-all have: [21:33] What's the difference between `pagan' and `new age'? [21:33] Hello everyone [21:33] *** Drum (Mibbit@sorcery-jshtf8.sub-174-233-15.myvzw.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:33] Hello idx! [21:33] The old joke says it is a decimal point [21:34] hi [21:35] But a real answer as to the difference between "pagan" and "new age": Pagans are generally focused on something based on Indo-European traditions, New Agers are after a whole sort of mish-mash. [21:35] Something pagan that runs you $50.00 is $500.0 or $5000. [21:35] Paganism is a religion that includes many different traditions or religions under it except for atheist paganism which is a joke. New Age is a spirituality that is not definitively religious [21:36] There's some overlap, but for a good example, compare a wildly different understanding of yoga among pagans who've studied Indian religion versus your average white New Age yoga studio. [21:37] Pagan is a bigger umbrella than the Indo European. Some will go with any non-abrahamic based religion. Some Practitioners of those faiths embrace it, some reject it. [21:38] Or another example, which really struck home for me recently: The difference between "Hare Krishna" chants done by an Indian classical choir, and the version usually done by the Krishna Consciousness folks. [21:38] New age often is still heavily abrahamic [21:38] That is because you can be any religion and layer it with New Age [21:39] And while yes, I can agree with the "non-Abrahamic", the Voudoun, Santeria, Shinto, Chinese Traditional, and many other non-Abrahamic folks generally don't see themselves as "pagans". [21:39] There’s more to it and you’ll find that every pagan has different beliefs about what is and isn’t paganism. When someone says they are pagan, I look for a few things 1. Do you believe in or honor the Gods (or some form of polytheism) 2. Are your practices and beliefs based on or infouenced by the old ways and 3. Do they acknowledge most beliefs or traditions under the pagan umbrella [21:40] It is a mixed bag--some do, some don't. Generally the clearer split there is neopagan versus the bigger umbrella [21:40] And it is possible to do atheist paganism seriously. Think of a version of paganism that focuses on the nature spirits and/or the ancestors. [21:41] One can believe in spirits without gods [21:41] Thex, there are pagan Voodoun. It used to be classified as being with paganism but these days not so much. But there are a few who are pagan Voodoun [21:41] And of course many forms of Wicca are not very polytheistic. [21:42] good point, Thex, if the 'theoi' strictly means deity [21:42] And the christian pagans confuse the issue further [21:42] Atheist paganism is a scam. I’ve spoken with the guy who started it and he bashes pagans negatively at every turn for believing in the gods yet always wants to be a part of the pagan community so he can sell his books [21:42] There's also Gaian belief, which can be Pagan without needing the supernatural aspects. [21:42] On the other hand, one of our long-time grovies is also an atheist. [21:43] He knows athiest won’t buy his books so pagans are where he forcefully classifies his “religion” [21:43] You spoke to a person who claims to found it--that doesn't cover everyone using the term [21:43] Gardner doesn't speak for all Wicca time [21:43] ...anyone who claims to have invented an entire belief system is suspicious to me. Like Chaos Magic. Sure it has promoters, but a creator? [21:44] If there are no supernatural aspects it’s not paganism. Ritual and magick have been intertwined with paganism since the dawn of man. If you take that out your honestly better off classifying it as new age [21:44] Supernatural does not require gods [21:45] Of course it does. It require everything in the realm of what is supernatural [21:45] It all comes down to defining a god versus everything else [21:45] So you have to believe in Big Foot and Loch Ness and Lizard people if you believe in Fairies? [21:46] People pick and choose all the time [21:46] Like believing only in individual gods and not amalgamated ones [21:46] You can’t say a werewolf is supernatural then forget about elementals or gods or even fae. It’s all one big supernatural soup [21:46] "atheism" literally means "a belief in no god(s)". It doesn't mean that the rest of the kindreds aren't there, nor does it demand everything be scientific. [21:46] idx, what would you consider the definition of a "god"? [21:47] I have to disagree. It is very easy to say only werewolves. It is harder to believe in everything as many are contradictory [21:47] There's also the issue of who gets to define 'pagan'. For any given historical tradition, much less modern ones, you could argue it out of the category with a particular definition. [21:48] I’m not saying you can’t work with a framework or believe in some over others but then you’d have to explain this. How is it pagans from two very different traditions can work a ritual together or both use magick [21:48] Which is why it has become more a feel-good generalization [21:48] [Owlhawk] [21:49] Like how an Irish Druid can work with Voodoun priest or Russian gypsy [21:49] Many ways, idx. Each group would have its on explanation or three of what happened, and none of them might agree, and it still worked [21:49] Or, alternately, they talked through what they were doing in advance, and picked one tradition to follow. [21:49] [Owlhawk] I nthink we should let the folks who don't believe in ny god define wht tht ctully7 mens.... [21:50] [Owlhawk] plese note, mny keybord needs some TLC.....or eplcemnet.... [21:50] Like I don't need to know electricity to turn on the lights and you don't and we might have different theories of how it works, but still manage to turn on the lights our own ways [21:50] For what it's worth, I wrote up well over a decade ago 5 elements that more-or-less defined paganism: [21:50] On some level, we accept each other’s gods and elementals and whatever else even though they contradict each other all the time. It’s not saying you worship them but you at least accept that their beliefs are just as valid as yours even if they don’t agree [21:51] 1. A variety of spiritual powers in the universe. [21:51] 2. A spiritual element to all living things (people, animals, trees, etc) [21:51] Not really--we mostly agree not to argue about it [21:51] 3. A strong connection between humans and the natural world. [21:52] 4. Belief that some sort of spiritual practice can have a physical effect on the world. [21:52] 5. Female aspects equal to or even greater than the male aspects. [21:52] DebbrahFoxveil, that’s what I’m saying. It’s not a matter of you believing like they do but in the grand scheme of things if works and works well together despite those differences then there is some connection that supersedes those differences even if it’s only on a extremely basic level [21:52] (Feel free to argue those points, but it seemed like a workable definition) [21:53] *** Drum (Mibbit@sorcery-iuh9eo.buckeyecom.net) has joined #adf [21:53] *** Drum (Mibbit@sorcery-iuh9eo.buckeyecom.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:53] One thing I'll mention is that in your Druid/Voudoun/Roma (don't use "gypsy", that's not the term they use for themselves) example, none of the traditions in questin deny the validity of the others. [21:53] Hm. Okay, one term I see being used here is "supernatural". What does that mean? It seems to me to mean "beyond the natural order". Are the gods supernatural? The other Kindred? [21:54] It’s kind of how I explain how vampires also do some magickal rituals. We are all on the same continent (magickally speaking) just different countries. When it comes to different practitioners, we all are from the same country just different states and cities. [21:54] I've worked ritual with people I think are completely wrong. I don't have to agree with them, I can believe that they just are managing to get enough right even if they have some details (say how gods work) [21:54] very wrong [21:56] I think that is closer to things Mouse--I don't believe in supernatural--I'm a bit Hobbsian there [21:56] Mouse: Good catch. I think what was trying to be expressed there is "Stuff not explained by science, and possibly not explainable by science." [21:56] Yeah, while I can't help feeling the word means _something_, "beyond the natural order" (which I think is the etymology) doesn't really seem to me to fit. [21:57] The gods don’t require belief, we are not christian. However being honored is a different story [21:57] [Owlhawk] vmpires? relly/ [21:57] Well, without belief, does it even make sense to honour? [21:57] [Owlhawk] ? [21:57] The gods don’t require blind faith. [21:57] Well, and that is a problem there too (the outside science). For one thing you have to define science. [21:57] If I were to not believe (say) Lugh exists, would it make any sense for me to do anything for/with him? [21:57] Maybe the gods do require belief. We don't know. I don't presume to know. [21:58] Sure--some people work with gods as symbols [21:58] A reason to honour without belief: If you think of the deities as aspects of your own psyche, and you want to strengthen the virtues that deity upholds, then you might honour them. [21:58] They don't have to exist to work [21:58] (paging Dr. Jung) [21:58] Also relevant: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnbeckett/2018/04/is-unconditional-belief-required-in-paganism.html [21:58] The pagan gods were here. We don’t have some imaginary god or force that we must blindly believe. We have history that shows they were here. If you don’t want to honor them then why be pagan. This is why I don’t like that guy that does athiest paganism. He might as well just be athiest or new age [21:58] /me reads.... [21:59] Which is why you are not an athiest pagan... but that doesn't mean they are not also pagan [21:59] Owl - some vampires actually do work with some gods and do rituals. I was just as surprised [21:59] Again, you're setting down anchors. I don't need my gods to be real or not real to be powerful. [22:00] Chihuahuas and Mastiffs are both dogs--Pagans are more diverse [22:00] *** gaarik (Mibbit@sorcery-2b7iuv.res.rr.com) has joined #adf [22:00] Of course it means they aren’t pagan. Besides they are using a play on words, taken from the ancient meaning of country dweller. So they are pagan just not pagan like us [22:00] I suppose you could say that a deity which is a projected part of your psyche is real, at least to you, but that point of view makes the question relatively uninteresting.... [22:01] Hello gaarik [22:01] [Owlhawk] so, imgintuve beings work with the gods...interesting. I didn't think Stoker hd become nything beyond fiction [22:01] Well and embracing a slur, like Hindus who use Hindu do [22:01] You're assuming a lot about 'us', idx. ADF spans a super wide gamut. [22:01] Perhaps it's just a lack of understanding of vampires, but I see no reason a vampire couldn't be pagan any more than a human couldn't. [22:01] Hey there. Been meaning to get on, but I got caught up in studying. Oops. [22:01] Well you should take a look at his site. He is just out to make a buck at the expense of real pagans. [22:02] Glad you goy caught up. [22:02] Not arguing that one person is a problem--but he isn't every aethist pagan [22:02] Oh, I don't think Stokerian vampires exist. But vampires in a more general sense, those I do believe exist (albeit are rare). [22:02] I definitely believe in vampiric beings [22:02] Not quite Nathan, you’d be surprised at how far ADF goes. The organization is open to all but to move up you specifically have to identify as a pagan Druid [22:03] Again, who are 'real pagans'? Are they like 'real Americans'? [22:03] What exactly do you mean by "move up"? idx, I have to point out you seem to be remarkably dogmatic. [22:03] And a Pagan Atheist Druid can be clergy, officer, etc. All that matters is the work. [22:03] For example, you can complete the Dedicant's Program without ever expressing a credo of any kind. [22:04] Not in ADF. The organization is very specific about anyone moving up specifically being a Pagan Druid as their primary religious title of identification. [22:04] You can have others but that has to be your primary [22:05] If you're going to be clergy, yes. Which makes sense, since you're a public representative of the organization. But you don't have to be if you're, say, senior druid. [22:05] But Nathan this is also if you want to move up. You can stay where your at and be anything you want [22:06] Also, what is this "up"? ADF clergy aren't "up", exactly, and definitely aren't a hierarchy in the same way as, say, the Catholics. [22:06] If you want any major leadership positions in ADF. And it’s not dogmatic so much as ensuring that your working within the organizations framework from what I’ve seen. [22:07] Here's the thing, you're still assuming, a priori, that Pagan Atheist isn't possible. So far as I'm aware, the org doesn't make that assumption. Hence, no obstacle. [22:07] And it’s not required to move up. So again all are welcome but to be a leader in ADF with an actual position you have to take certain titles. [22:07] You can be the ADF secretary (#3 officer), a regional druid, a non-officer director, a leader in a grove, kin, guild, order, or SIG, all without taking the oaths required of clergy. [22:08] The only positions that are actually restricted to clergy are Archdruid and Vice Archdruid. [22:08] And, depending on the various Grove bylaws, sometimes certain officers in those Groves. [22:08] Nathan you can say your a pagan leprechaun goddess of potatoes. I’m only telling you what the ADF requires at higher levels. You can be other things too but they make sure their titles are your primary titles. And if your here it’s not a stretch [22:08] If that counds as "up". [22:09] Has anyone brought up orthopraxy in the discussion yet? [22:09] My husband is a Senior Druid and he has never done the DP or taken any oath [22:09] And no one gets to judge if you are or aren't one. Not you, not the Archdruid. As long as you do the work, you're a Pagan Druid in practice. (there it is, gaarik!) [22:09] Because it sounds like that's where this is going. [22:09] I’m also including all of ADF like the Mothergrove officers [22:10] I listed a bunch of Mother Grove officers that don't need to take those oaths. [22:10] Nathan, actually it’s required on the website. Simply doing it in practice won’t work [22:10] Add "Member's Advocate" to that list as well. [22:11] [Owlhawk] Thex hs the right of it\ [22:11] Where are you reading this on the website? [22:11] Another great example: Flip Rutledge has been head of the Council of Senior Druids for a long time, a fairly prominent post, but he's not clergy. [22:11] Thex you know the site isn’t specific about which positions are leadership positions so that is something that I’ll need to check. [22:11] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [22:11] idx, I'm not sure how you're getting your information, or if that information on the site has changed. That said... [22:12] gaarik: it’s not required for everyone only a select few [22:13] Anyone can be a member of ADF with whatever title they want [22:13] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has joined #adf [22:13] So don’t say once you finish the DP you have to be a pagan Druid that is far from true [22:13] *** Mode change [+o rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [22:14] there used to be an article on the site being very clear that ADF errs on the side of orthopraxy with a lot of its training and requirements. For example, I'm aware of atheist priests in the org. They still practice ADF, they still adhere to the hearth culture they started in, but they technically do not believe in the Gods as literal beings. Maybe it's just [22:14] But for a few leadership positions the organization actually requires pagan Druid as your primary identification unless it’s changed in the 5 month’s I read it last [22:14] Wb Rovena [22:14] Exactly 2: The Archdruid and Vice-Archdruid. All other positions are open to the general membership. [22:14] coming from being late to the chat, but with the talk of "real pagans" and such, I'm a little concerned you're getting off information. [22:14] Could you share where you are reading this so we can all see the wording [22:14] Oh, sorry, 1 more: Preceptor. [22:15] Let me check [22:15] But does it define pagan druid idx? Does it say pagan (meaning believes a particular way about gods) druid? [22:15] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [22:15] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has joined #adf [22:16] Wb Deddrah [22:16] Tech issues [22:16] We all get those from time to time [22:17] *** idx (idx@sorcery-entomb.qkca.kmal.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [22:17] *** idx (idx@sorcery-entomb.qkca.kmal.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #adf [22:18] I’ll have to go through the website again but don’t worry it only applies to a few people who would be fairly high up [22:19] It more than likely just applies to arch Druids [22:19] idx, if you don't mind me asking, what religious background are you coming from prior to ADF? [22:19] Pagan [22:19] Let me know when you find it. I am interested in reading it. [22:20] Actual pagan not athiest pagan [22:22] The reason I ask is that the kind of dogmatism you seemed to be expressing is more common from those who came out of some form of fairly conservative Christianity. [22:22] Do you mind defining "actual pagan?" Atheist pagans are still pagan. Example: Here, hard animistic poly-pantheon polytheist. [22:23] *** idx (idx@sorcery-entomb.qkca.kmal.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [22:23] Alternately, if you came out of coven practice, it sounds like your high priestess might have been of the fairly strict variety. [22:26] *** idx (idx@sorcery-entomb.qkca.kmal.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #adf [22:26] Ok I found it but the bylaws changed [22:27] It’s in the ADF bylaws for archdruid of ADF. Doesn’t apply to all other positions [22:27] My mistake [22:27] No problem. The website can be hard to get around. [22:28] They should be updated: As of a few months ago, the vice-archdruid is now also required to be clergy. But again, you can do an awful lot without being clergy. [22:28] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [22:28] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has joined #adf [22:28] For instance, many of ADF's ranked bards aren't clergy. [22:28] *** Mode change [+o rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [22:28] If it helps for comparison, look at some other folks claiming they're 'real pagan' and you're not. Don't sacrifice human offerings? Not real pagan. Don't draw a circle? Not real pagan. [22:29] And it’s changed to “Candidates shall practice Neopagan Druidry as their primary religious path.” [22:30] And that’s candidate for archdruid if adf [22:30] Of* [22:30] "Not living at least 500 years ago? Not a real pagan." :-) [22:32] Or 500 years from now: "Never been to Earth? Not a real pagan. How can you have an Earth-based practice without at least seeing Earth?" [22:32] Well, still, idx, not to be a stickler, but a candidate could practice druidry and still be, say, a materialist (I think that's how it was put?). Belief may be somewhat important to those like me in the org, but it's not a requirement. [22:33] (still trying to sell that story, btw ;) ) [22:33] It’s only for the highest levels of the organization. So you can be whatever you want until you get there [22:33] Then again, I am only speaking in regards to what I've read and my own experience; I haven't undergone consecration or anything. [22:35] *** gaarik (Mibbit@sorcery-2b7iuv.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [22:35] *** gaarik (Mibbit@sorcery-2b7iuv.res.rr.com) has joined #adf [22:36] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [22:36] gaarik: here’s the thing you have to remember about ADF, it’s for the “hardcore pagan Druids” who are all about what the ancient Druids practiced and what they can learn. If you want something more open at the highest levels many other Druid organizations like OBOD only required you complete their grade of Druid. You can be an athiest Druid or even a Christian Druid. Why? I don’t know but to e [22:36] ach their own [22:37] Then things have changed since I've last been here. [22:37] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has joined #adf [22:37] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [22:38] If they unearthed an ancient Druid dig site, most of the organization would die from research happiness myself included [22:38] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has joined #adf [22:38] *** Mode change [+o rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [22:39] How = others [22:39] Probably, but that's as much because it's defined as a scholarly org as anything else. Some of us aren't really Celtic-focused. [22:39] We're focused on other hearth cultures. Hellenic. Norse. [22:39] And, at least in my experience, lots of the ADF isn't really hardcore anything. [22:39] (just examples) [22:40] Your hearth is always your choice and if it’s indo-European your welcome in ADF [22:40] That's why I was confused, Mouse. [22:40] Some of this is one's perception. [22:40] It's nice to know what the ancestors did, but we're already ignoring huge parts of past practice. Deliberately, in many cases. [22:40] Probably would die of disappointment at how little it really proved ; [22:40] ;) [22:41] Probably! [22:41] LOL [22:42] Every member of ADF has their own focus and no two members are expected to or will likely follow the exact same path. Find your focus and go with it. If it’s brewing well brew away [22:42] And actually, idx, your hearth can be anything. ADF just supports the Indo-European part. [22:42] And idx, I'm aware of the Indo-European nature of ADF, perhaps it's just your wording, but you're making the org sound a whole lot more hard-nosed than it was back when I left in 2011. [22:43] Nathan-ADF only has the info-European within ITS framework. As a Druid or whatever you want, you can do what you like. It doesn’t become somewhat strict until you start an ADF Grove or Proto-Grove [22:44] The only restriction is that public ritual be one of the approve hearth cultures [22:44] And even then Rovena has multiple hearths in her Grove but the down side is mix-matching is frowned upon so a ritual for each hearth is the way adf suggests [22:46] gaarik: don’t think how I view Druidry is an end all be all. I’m only sharing what I’ve learned and read. My advice, take it all with a grain of salt and find for yourself what you believe and think is right or wrong [22:46] Our grove rituals use only one hearth culture per ritual but different rituals do cover a range of hearth cultures [22:46] We don’t want blind followers, we want people to think for themselves [22:47] And that’s paganism in general [22:47] The problem is, your perception of the org is dramatically different than mine and of members I've met, and you speak as if you have an authority that frankly, not even clergy or officers hold. [22:47] We (the grove I'm currently loosely affiliated with) does that too, rovena; we switch off between Celtic and Norse. [22:47] I’m only telling you what’s in the by-laws for certain positions which has changed in the last year [22:48] idx, not to be rude, but I've found that, thanks. I'm more taking surprise from your interpretation of the org, is all. [22:49] My interpretation is merely my own. If you don’t agree with it that’s expected and as Rovena would say ask 3 druids 1 question and you’ll get 9 different answers [22:50] I think that we have beaten this horse enough. Is there something else people would like to discuss? [22:50] Sorry, didn't mean to start a horse-beating with that question! [22:51] I’m good, i have a long day at work tomorrow so I’ll be heading out in a few minutes [22:51] It does have me looking at the differences between clergy and initiates [22:51] No problem, Mouse. It was alively conversation [22:52] Questioning is encouraged here. And it taught how quickly the organization can change and how different it can be for different members [22:52] CLergy are trained to serve the community. Initiates are trained to reach their personal peak. [22:53] One thing I definitely do believe is that any organization that cannot stand questioning is not worth belonging to. [22:54] True but somethings we need to know when to say "We have to agree to disagree respectfully." [22:54] Also true. Questioning is very much not the same thing as attacking. [22:54] Rovena I thought that was the 9 different answers lol [22:54] And, indeed, as idx says, ask five druids a question and get at least six answers. [22:56] The part that caught me is the 'primarily self defines as ADF Druid'--I'm mulling over what that means personally [22:57] Thinking about what that means to members who are involved in other traditions as well [22:58] DebbrahFoxveil: I know one reason it’s done is because of that Wiccan priest pedophile who got caught running a coven. It’s so you know, they are staying in line with the religion but I only know from other organizations not ADF [22:59] Debbrah, that is not the actual wording of the bylaws [22:59] I've been digging, but you know the website [23:00] Article 4 Item 1.7 reads: Candidates for Archdruid or Vice Archdruid must be ordained members of ADF Clergy in good standing, i.e. Active ADF Priests.. [23:00] the link is https://www.adf.org/members/org/docs/bylaws.html#article_4 [23:00] I mean looking at requirements for clergy [23:02] That’s why I keep an eye out for athiest pagans and the like. It may be one person but most people will think that’s how we all are especially if one gets caught download child pornography. It’s too easy to group anyone with a pentacle, including adf members, as being the same as him or anyone else that does something that bad [23:03] And society does the grouping [23:03] Which is about as bad as using other unconnected features like race, gender, job... [23:04] A reason to wear a triskel wheel instead of a pentacle :) [23:06] It is but most people let fear rule their decision making before understanding it. I think what’s worse is they don’t notice practitioners until something like that happens. He’ll most don’t even realize Merlin was a Druid but when you tell them they are like “really?!?!” Let alone he was kind of a madman who’s sister’s husband kept dragging him back to the castle [23:06] I just think he missed the woods a lot and got called crazy for choosing the woods as his home over a castle [23:08] But from a peasants perspective, I’d probably love a castle too [23:09] Overall the entire thing isn’t clear [23:10] So you're saying, you're looking out for atheist pagans because they might be into something bad that you don't want associated with ADF? I just want to be clear here... [23:10] Given that what we have is a figure cobbled together from many traditions over many eras... Tennyson and Monmoth have little in common. And that is before you add in the Ambrose [23:11] No, I spoke with the guy who is spearheading it. He doesn’t make sense as to why he will one minute say pagans are flat out wrong for believing in gods or the supernatural but the next minute insists on being a part of the very community he thinks is wrong [23:12] idx, you really need to work on phrasing. it sounded like you called atheism as something odious, like pedophilia. [23:12] I wouldn’t say such things about a religion otherwise. [23:13] It's not even bad if someone knows an ADF member is also atheist. It's an asset. And if someone's going to make assumptions based on one person, they're going to do that regardless. [23:13] One guy isn't "atheist pagans", even if he claims he is an atheist pagan, even if he thinks he represents the whole class.... [23:13] Well and implied it is why all wiccans need to be given the side eye [23:14] What I’m saying is be careful when things don’t add up like it does with him. I am usually very accepting of most new forms of paganism [23:15] So you're talking about a particular person, then. I may have missed a message, then. [23:15] We should give them the side eye loljk I know many Wiccans and I like them and their practices mostly. [23:16] Well I’ll drop it, because my quarrel with him is basically academic classification [23:17] I have the same problem with Christian Wiccans putting their books in the pagan section when they should be the in the christian or new age section [23:17] idx has been speaking of a particular person but as a reason to invalidate all atheist pagans. [23:18] I hate to admit it, but I need sleep. Job interview in the morning. Be well all. [23:18] Well again let me say that my biggest issue always has been is that it should be classified as a form of atheism over Paganism [23:18] Everything else is moot [23:18] *** NathanLarge (Mibbit@sorcery-j83dm6.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [23:18] Night [23:19] Night\ [23:20] Not sure what you mean by atheism _over_ paganism.... [23:20] That’s where he insisted it should be a form of paganism but academically speaking he sees it as part of a larger neopagan movement. I think it’s clearly more athiest movement [23:20] Perhaps, but that leads to that dead horse that was already beaten. I've said my piece on that. [23:21] Atheist paganism is classified as a form of paganism by the guy who runs it. From a purely academic perspective it’s really more a form of atheism because it’s based on humanism and science [23:21] SO does anyone have another topic of interest? [23:22] Has anyone been watching Rutledge’s live feeds on Druidry? [23:22] Well, I've been leading a small meditation group at work, today and a week ago and it may turn into a weekly thing. [23:22] No guy runs it [23:22] Cool Mouse. [23:22] Mouse, that sounds awesome. [23:22] Do you guys do that before or after work [23:23] Sorry--dead horse [23:23] Or during [23:23] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [23:23] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has joined #adf [23:23] Wb DebbrahFoxveil [23:23] It has been pretty cool. I don't know the religion of any of them, except that one guy is Muslim enough to fast during Ramadan daylight. Nor do I know their points of view on other related matters. I'm just trying to get them meditating; the details matter less to me.... [23:24] idx, mostly during. We take a half-hour or so out of our afternoon, at least that's how we've done it so far. [23:24] And you get paid for it? [23:25] (Yes, it's been pretty short so far. I'm planning on trying to build the time up with practice.) [23:25] Yes; as far as I know we've all been on the clock for it. Well, except for our boss, who is the clockkeeper. [23:25] So....what if someone sleeps during meditation? [23:25] (He's the guy whose stress level made me offer to do it.) [23:26] I have nothing against that, provided they wake up again when we're coming out of it. [23:26] Lol [23:26] Indeed, in a few functional senses, we might as well be asleep when we're meditating. [23:27] Well it’s a good idea and it can help reduce stress and increase productivity [23:27] Indeed. That's kinda the point. :) [23:28] And it may save our boss from an early heart attack; I like the guy, so I consider that a positive. :) [23:29] Well the benefits are there and you should definitely keep it going. [23:29] I'm planning on! [23:30] Anybody else been introducing practices like meditation that are related to druidry (even if only peripherally) to mundanes? [23:30] I generally don’t because meditation can be dangerous for some. [23:31] Oh? What dangers? I wasn't aware of any. [23:32] And I usually keep practitioners around who teach it and refer them if anyone asks. I live in a place where a lot people make a living off of these kinds of things. That’s why I don’t read cards for people or casts spells or meditation or yoga [23:32] I've run a couple of open workshops in the past where I was living, nothing regular, though. [23:33] Meditation if done incorrectly or if the person isn’t psychologically stable enough can cause headaches, nightmares, paralysis, and in extreme cases death or insanity [23:34] Usually those kinds of people wouldn’t ever meditate anyway even if asked [23:34] Hm, d'you have any pointers to what I could read to be more aware of the dangers? [23:34] I do ward the room first.... [23:34] Well, there's that; this is entirely voluntary. [23:36] The biggest thing is making sure people are just somewhat mentally stable. If it’s someone like hitler that might happen because they are doing horrible things and somehow justifying it. Multiple personality disorders are also something to watch out for [23:36] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [23:36] It is pretty rare to get that far without being bothered enough by smaller issues to not want to continue [23:37] None of these people are - or should be, as far as I can tell - psych patients. [23:37] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has joined #adf [23:37] Then you should be ok. But if you end up with a serial killer or psychopath or sociopath then things might get interesting [23:37] *** Mode change [+o rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [23:38] Wb Rovena [23:38] Thanks [23:40] Meditation can force people to address their darker nature sooner or later. If they can deal with it they can become more whole especially after any trauma or emotional damage. If they can’t their mind and their body can literally turn on them [23:41] But again it depends on how severe the person has been mentally damaged. All but the worst people should be ok [23:42] Your stressed out boss should be ok though 😀 [23:43] And if he has high blood pressure tell him to keep track of it with his practice. He should see some improvements which should help keep him motivated [23:44] Dunno what is blood pressure is like; we haven't discussed that. [23:44] ...his... [23:44] Unless he eats greasy food like McDonald’s for every meal [23:44] But he should be able to tell by how he feels too [23:45] Wow it’s almost 11 I need to head out [23:45] Certainly doesn't go too junkfoody when I've seen what he's eating. [23:45] Good luck and night everyone [23:45] Yeah, nearly midnight for me. [23:45] 'night, idx! [23:45] NIght [23:45] *** idx (idx@sorcery-entomb.qkca.kmal.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [23:45] night [23:49] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [23:50] So...any other topics or should we all call it a night [23:50] ? [23:50] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has joined #adf [23:50] *** Mode change [+o rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [23:50] I'm trying to come up with something, and all I can come up with is what I'm working on with my study program. [23:51] Why not that, then? [23:51] Which study program are you doing? [23:51] We might have some insight [23:51] I'm doing the CTP-prelim. It's the reason I came back to ADF after 6 years. [23:51] Well, came back is a strong phrase. "Rejoined the org when I could do so," is more correct. [23:53] I'm currently working on the Indo-European Mythology standards. Most of it I have down pat, I've been doing this long enough, it's just pulling from memory. [23:55] But I'm not as solid on Welsh outdwellers. The DP posits the Coraniaid, but I was more under the understanding that the outdwellers survived in Welsh myth as the giants Arthur's knights fought. [23:55] That, the afanc, a few others... [23:56] I'm not as familiar with the Welsh legendry as I'd like... [23:56] I hadn't even remembered the Coraniaid as they're only really in one story that I know of. [23:56] You could frequently use the Irish... [23:56] Well, I work with Welsh Gods, but not as a primary. My primary's Vanatru. I thought using the Irish would be a bit of a disservice. [23:57] The easy way out, I guess. [23:58] What's wrong with the easy way? I know when I have something to do, I generally take the easy way instead of the hard way, and it doesn't feel wrong. [23:59] Easy way can also mean going with the flow [23:59] Personal choice and desire to push myself further. I've been acting as a priest for my own rit group for years, but a) I've kind of hit the ceiling as far as personal/spirit training, and b) I really do believe in ADF as an org, and was sad when I couldn't afford membership for a while. [00:01] I'm doing this as much to challenge myself and be the best I can be for my Gods. So I've been switching things up on the questions I can, going into Greek (one of my buddies in the rit group works Greek), learning more about the Welsh than I've known before, thinking about things in different ways... [00:01] Challenging oneself is good [00:02] Sorry. I know this is mostly stream of consciousness-type writing, but it's what I'm working on right now. [00:03] Nothing wrong with stream-of-consciousness. [00:03] It can get hard to interpret, is all, when you're rambling, and I do have that tendency. [00:03] And I'm glad to hear you're back to being able to (re)join. [00:03] Yeah, that's a fact! [00:04] I was really upset when I was unable to re-up, and how long it's taken to get back on my feet as far as that goes. [00:05] Just a thought on pushing yourself. There is challenging, and there is forcing something to fit a mold it doesn't fit. Sometimes the easy way is easy because it works and the hard way is hard because it doesn't... [00:05] Very true. I'll keep that in mind, DebbrahFoxveil. Thanks. [00:05] But also, nothing worth having comes without some cost, usually in the form of time and/or effort. [00:07] Mouse, you are right about that. That lesson hit hard just a week ago. Moved into a new place. xD [00:08] The trick is figuring out if the hard is effort or if the hard is a matter of things not connecting [00:08] Everything in moderation. [00:09] moving definitely = hard. I moved 2 years ago and I'm still working on it! [00:10] Indeed, DebbrahFoxveil (responding to "the trick is..."). [00:10] I'm actually a little proud of myself. Only forgot one box, didn't have any medical issues this time, I'm mostly unpacked except for my books, and those will come soon enough... [00:11] Just need to get the right bookcase. [00:12] But yeah. I'm mostly pondering Welsh and how it's fit into my hearth culture for the last few years. Shoehorned itself in, is more like. [00:12] I I keep running into the problem of needing to get the right apartment (I need another room if I want my books out) [00:13] Maybe 2, my husband would want his out if I get mine out... [00:13] Yeah, when I moved in with my now-wife, we combined two households, each of which already had too much crap, and guess what happened.... [00:13] Oof! I wish I still had that many books. I lost a lot of mine when I moved back to Ohio. [00:14] Crap expanded exponentially? [00:14] I am going to bid y'all a goodnight. Til next time. [00:14] Ohio? Isn't that Tree Cranes territory I was reading up a little on them just today. [00:14] Good night, Rovena. [00:14] G'night, then, rovena! [00:14] And we purged before we moved--I left a good 5000+ [00:14] Good night [00:14] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-so7h14.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Quit:] [00:14] Nope, it's Stonecreed Grove territory here. I'm in Cleveland. [00:14] Er...Three Cranes... [00:14] Three Cranes is Columbus. [00:15] (Though Tree Cranes sounds interesting. :) [00:15] Mmm, k. [00:15] I'm from there, met Michael back when I was still Christian, but that's about as much as I can say I've had experience with Three Cranes. [00:15] I've seen tree herons but not cranes ;) [00:15] Oog. Quarter past midnight here. I really gotta go turn in. [00:15] That must have been... dang, I got old. 19 years ago. [00:16] Okay, have a good night. [00:16] The years just keep slipping past. [00:16] Night [00:16] * Mouse curls up to idle. [00:16] Only a bit past 9 here [00:16] Sllep, brother of death [00:16] Sleep [00:16] * Mouse is in Ottawa. [00:16] not sllep [00:17] And it must be late for me because I read idle as die and thought Mouse was being poetic [00:17] And I cannot imagine losing 5000 books. [00:17] LOL That explains the Brother of Death. [00:18] Most were fiction. I have to do that ever 5 or six years. I have a problem [00:18] That doesn't sound like a problem, that sounds like a solution. [00:18] Only until people explain that they will NEVER help you move your books ;) [00:18] Yeah... [00:19] My former roommate told me he wasn't going to help me move because of mine. [00:19] I said, "But the tote only weighs..." and then picked it up. Oops. [00:19] Still, evenm with both purging, we had about 40 bankers boxes of books. And I left some in Mom's basement I went back for later [00:20] Oh, my. Sounds like quite a collection. [00:21] We both are readers. And I had been collection mythology from when I was 4 and parapsycology and paganism from when I was 13. So lots of time to indulge my hobby [00:22] My husband's focus has been more on Indian mythology and philosophy and sanskrit (which happened to be an area of mythology I'd missed [00:23] so very complementary [00:23] *nods* I still have my Greece and Rome by HA Grueber from back when I was 5. My very Lutheran aunt gave that one to me. [00:24] My Grandmother had a Reader's Digest book of stories and I fell in love with the story of Pegasus [00:24] I kept that one [00:24] Always a good story. [00:25] I just wish I had known about Norse myth when I was that young. Might have accepted I was pagan much sooner. *laughs* [00:25] If you don't mind me asking, which culture's myths are your favorite? [00:25] I was lucky--my parents were pretty open to me reading anything (much to the librarians' disapproval) [00:28] I have soft spots for several. Greek from my youth. Norse, Irish, and Anglo-Saxon are good buddies types. Indian as basically in-laws. Welsh are my roots. [00:31] Indian is pretty much the one I don't know much about in that list. [00:32] It's always interested me, though. I was reading up on Hinduism today as a way to unwind from my studying, that was really cool. [00:33] I've always been most focused on the Norse, though, ever since I first learned about them. [00:34] I'm lucky in that it is something my husband is pretty familiar with. He initiated into a vaishnava group and almost became a monk. (Vaishnav is the bigger tradition that the Hari Krishna's fall under--the group he belongs to is older, smaller and more Indian based) [00:36] Really, I connect less with the gods and more ancestor and 'noble kindred'. [00:36] Sounds pretty lucky. Also something I kind of understand. The reason I know as much as I do about the Egyptian was an old friend of mine was in Kemetic Orthodoxy. [00:36] Fair. [00:38] More animistic than theistic, per se? [00:38] The tradition I come from was an interesting mix, and kind of imploded in several directions from it. Some went wicca, some witch, some fairy seership [00:38] This was a tradition of witchcraft, I take it? [00:39] Yes--a subgroup of Foxwood Temple [00:40] And I was also lucky to have a fair bit of exposure to the Ced Tradition (another witchcraft tradition) [00:40] *nods* [00:40] Anyway, connected there more to spirits than gods [00:40] Makes perfect sense. [00:41] So, you said you eventually accepted you leaned Norse--strait fro Christianity to ADF or any stops along the way? [00:41] I cannot type tonight--ugh [00:42] Kind of both? It's a long explanation. [00:43] I actually started working with a Celtic Pagan in a magical group, started reading Celtic mythology, wasn't really getting the concepts. [00:43] fair enough--the closer it comes to contradictory and paradoxical, the closer it is to real with this sort of stuff usually [00:43] I kept looking into Gnostic Christianity because of their links with Ceremonialism. [00:44] But then someone gave me Teutonic Magic, and that was, as they say, that. [00:45] ADF rite was the first style of rite I'd ever performed, and even then, didn't know much about them until years later. [00:45] It was all online resources. [00:46] I was leery of joining any spiritual group, frankly; wasn't until I actually met Michael Dangler that I even considered joining ADF. [00:47] And even then, it took a long time to let go of the "Christian" aspect. I knew I was pagan, but I kept identifying as Christopagan for several years. [00:48] I know that feeling with the book. I was going to become a parapsycologist, I was sure, and then picked up Laurie Cabot's power of a Witch (I was 12, 13) And then in college picked up Living Witchcraft and went 'Ooh--this" and then found out a month later the group I had just connected with was tied to the grandbaby coven of that coven. [00:48] It's like that sometimes. [00:49] I could just hear it. Feel it. Nothing logical. That's why I eventually did join ADF; I had that kind of experience with Stonecreed Grove up here. [00:49] But it was, like you said, the people. [00:49] Yep. [00:50] So, yeah, went right to ADF, though not exactly the "right" way. LOL [00:50] "Oh, look, here's a Yule Rite! It's ADF... What's that? Oh, nevermind, I'll find out later..." [00:52] The coven you worked with, do you mind if I asked how long you were with them before they... imploded, as you say? [00:52] Yeah--mine was this sweet old kook of a pagan who would help out our campus pagan group. About a week after I read the book, he handed me a flier for the 101 class sign up/application for them [00:53] Very nice. [00:57] I met them in late '99. couple years going through classes and such, initiated fall of 2002. There were a few layers of problems that got bad about 2006--about when we hived, but I stuck it out until about mid 2008. I could argue with a few people about it, but consider myself basically the one to have killed it/last one to end it. [00:58] I later found out our mother coven was having issues about the same time--I have yet to figure out what happened with them [00:58] That's too bad. I'm always sad to hear about wiccan or magical groups ending. [00:59] Well, we were an experiment--an attempt to have an organic hive bud off rather than the traditional explode. And instead it exploded. [00:59] Most of those years I was part of the Grove of the Oak--which makes me laugh/cringe at a lot of ADF things [00:59] That's fair. Not all experiments succeed. [01:00] ? [01:00] Why is that? [01:00] Just seeing Grove and even Grove of the ____ Oak on so many things. Kind of a coming back to roots [01:01] The protogrove closest to me is Grove of the Valley Oak [01:01] for example [01:02] Aha. Yeah, that does seem like a usual convention. [01:03] Then again, druids, oaks, apparently a thing. [01:04] And things like the DP--It isn't as rigorous as our 101 and Gesith courses, but they were in-person with teachers and this is set up to be individual. [01:04] So it is familiar too. I've resisted digging out old files ; [01:04] seeing if any match up ;) [01:05] The DP mostly is introductory, though. All the magic and deep mythology is in the GSP or similar programs. [01:05] So that makes sense. [01:06] Anyways--My HP/HP's HP (its complicated) still likes to say "for witches this is law, from where you enter is where you must withdraw" [01:06] Yeah, and ours were in the initiatory things after those. [01:06] *nod* [01:07] There were 2 years of requirements before you could seek initiation, about a year of stuff leading to initiation after that, and then ongoing work after that [01:08] Anyway--just a coming full circle sort of thing [01:08] A lot of work, but worth it. [01:09] And coming full circle isn't a bad thing. Sometimes makes everything worthwhile, just from the nostalgia. Well, if they're good memories. [01:10] I've seen Ced's dedicant reading list, so I know they also have fairly high requirements. It just makes me raise my eyebrows when people talk about how unique the ADF standards supposedly are [01:10] They are, and kind of some do-over potential [01:12] I suppose it's all in how your experience unfolded. I still maintain ADF's one of the best places for individual training, but going through the CTP prelim, I'm probably going to be finished with all of the exit standards in a couple weeks. [01:12] It's all review for me. [01:12] Hence why the challenging myself thing. [01:13] Also, I say probably. Not definitely. [01:13] Just... you know... being clear. [01:14] I'm doing some of the same--Got Bath House for my Hearth book for example as I know the least about them [01:15] Things like that. [01:15] *nod* [01:16] Anyway--it's what, 1 am or so for you? Only 10 here, but I think I'm going to call it a night. get some laundry started and such [01:16] Good chat [01:16] Okay. Have a wonderful night. [01:17] *** gaarik (Mibbit@sorcery-2b7iuv.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [01:21] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [04:09] *** Server connection lost [04:10] *** Server connection lost [04:10] *** Server connection lost [04:11] *** Owlhawk (Owlhawk@sorcery-hfsa73.cable.rogers.com) has joined #adf [04:11] *** Topic is: Welcome to the chat for Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship (ADF). Find out more about us at http://www.adf.org [04:11] *** Topic set by ChanServ!services@services.sorcery.net on Mon Aug 3 8:55 AM [04:11] =NickServ= This nickname is registered and protected. If it is your [04:11] =NickServ= nick, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY password. Otherwise, [04:11] =NickServ= please choose a different nick. 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