*** Opened channel log for #ADF at 2018-04-10 7:15:26 PM [19:15] *** Owlhawk (Owlhawk@sorcery-hfsa73.cable.rogers.com) has joined #ADF [19:15] *** ChanServ has changed the topic on #ADF to "Welcome to the chat for Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship (ADF). Find out more about us at http://www.adf.org" [19:15] *** Mode change [+r] on #ADF by ChanServ [19:55] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-a5c.njf.45.67.IP) has joined #ADF [19:56] *** Mode change [+o rovena] on #ADF by ChanServ [20:06] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-a5c.njf.45.67.IP) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [20:06] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-a5c.njf.45.67.IP) has joined #ADF [20:06] *** Mode change [+o rovena] on #ADF by ChanServ [20:16] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has joined #ADF [20:16] Hello Debbrah [20:17] Hi [20:17] How are you tonight? [20:17] Pretty good--how are you? [20:18] Enjoying sunshine at least for a few days [20:21] Anything you would like to discuss tonight? [20:21] Nothing springs to mind [20:22] Okay. [20:23] Sometimes people get here early then other times they get here real late. [20:25] Sometimes we discuss deep, serious stuff. Sometimes we discuss the Maple Leafs. [20:32] Anyone pick up any good books lately? [20:32] I have more books than I have time to read now. Have you gotten any? [20:34] Found a decently priced copy of the Bathhouse at Midnight that arrived yesterday. And I'm in the middle of a history of languages... let me find the title here... [20:35] How is Bathhouse? I don't know much about the Slavic hearth cultures [20:35] Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World [20:36] I have only skimmed it a bit so far. I decided to use it for the dedicant hearth book because that was the one I knew least as well [20:36] Sounds interesting. [20:36] *** idx (idx@sorcery-nsli5b.iu8l.c6sq.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #ADF [20:36] Hello everyone [20:36] Hello! [20:37] Hi [20:37] How are things down south? [20:37] Did you get any of the recent storms? [20:39] Hanging in there, surprisingly cold for April. How are things up yonder? [20:40] We got a few of them [20:40] The F2 tornado went about 30 miles south of us. Large hail and rain was all we got [20:40] Welcome to Louisiana [20:41] We never had a F2 in this area before. Lots of F0s and F1s [20:41] The weather is pretty crazy here sometimes [20:41] I have lived in Tornado Alley most of my life. [20:42] F3-F4 is when you really need to worry. F5, well, better say a prayer to the weather Gods [20:42] Oh you’ll be ok then minus the fact we don’t have basements here [20:42] Do they have basements up there? [20:43] Unlike hurricanes, tornados tend to follow a pattern in a broad sense [20:43] I miss my basement. Cool in summer and warm in winter [20:44] Can't do any brewing without a cool dar, space to ferment [20:45] Hurricanes have a somewhat predictable path but you are right, you can have tornadoes randomly show up during one [20:45] Hurricanes are more unpredictable because water is more unstable than earth is [20:46] But in defense of hurricanes, they benefit the environment a lot from spreading nutrients across the sea and onto land to cooling down the earth [20:46] Are you in the brewers guild? [20:47] True. Property wouldn't be as damaged if we restored the coastal marshes to absorb the high tides [20:47] Yes but I haven't been doing anything lately [20:49] It’s the price of urban development. [20:49] Do you know much about mead and wine? [20:50] It has been a while. Owlhawk is the one to ask. He actively brews [20:51] I may look into it, could be fun to learn a thing or two [20:51] Mead is made with honey and wine is made with fruit [20:52] Which do you make more of? [20:52] Use good equipment. Hubby tried to make fig wine using the ballon on the wine bottle method. He forgot to release the pressure and we had fig juice and broken glass fromt he back porch thru to the front door. [20:53] That sucks [20:53] It has been a long time but I think it was mead we did the most of. [20:53] It was a mess to be sure. [20:54] Mead is awesome [20:55] If you are interested, there are probably some brewing clubs you can check out. Most libraries will have books as well. [20:55] So I have some bad news that may come up in the future [20:56] Oooooo 👍😀😀😀😀 [20:56] Supplies are hard to get here. [20:56] I sorry to hear that. [20:57] Well if you ever need anything sent to you from here let me know. Just help me with the cost of shipping and packaging [20:57] That is only fair. [20:58] Dangler helped me with some stuff so I try to pay it forward [20:59] So did Art [20:59] Understand that. [20:59] And you answer all my noob questions lol [20:59] We all were noobs at one time [21:01] Very true. I’ve been practicing Druidry for a long time but with actual rules and guidelines it’s very different lol [21:01] Agreed [21:03] But in all fairness Douglas Monroe was the “best” Arthur I had come across so realizing how far off I’ve been has been a nice wake up call. Although he does drop a few nuggets of gold every so often [21:05] Like how he focused on a ritual that he performed which allowed him to mediate upon herb lore was awesome. [21:06] Even a pile of cow manure can yield up mushrooms. [21:06] He woke up and recorded some great inferences between ancient Druidry and modern Druidry. Although it is still hypothetical it is sound and workable [21:06] Very true [21:07] Cringe--sorry, once someone makes it into the ancient Irish potato goddess pile, I will NEVER trust them again. [21:07] Who is in that pile? [21:08] And trust me, I know Irish Druids are definitely the most knowledgeable about ancient Druidry [21:08] Just because they aren't trustworhty doesn't mean you can't find inspiration from them. UPG has it place along with scholarsip [21:09] Monroe, a number of other Celtic-ish authors. Basically anyone who in a serious tone provides information along the lines of "and here is a ritual to honor the Ancient Irish Potato Goddess" [21:09] It isn't about UPG--I work Faery Trad, you can't escape it [21:10] But there is UPG, and there is Potato Goddess [21:11] *** Thexalon (Mibbit@sorcery-a890t0.res.rr.com) has joined #ADF [21:11] Howdy everyone! Finally able to pop into chat for a bit. [21:12] There is UPG, and there is asserting something as historical and deriving things from it as if it were historical [21:12] Douglas isn’t historically accurate but you do have to give him a hint of credit for creatively forming his own thoughts on modern Druidry. Not saying he is the best that ever was or will be [21:12] Hi [21:12] UPG? [21:12] Hello Thex [21:12] Thexalon [21:12] Unsubstantiated Personal Gnosis [21:12] Unverifiable Personal Gnosis. Stuff you experience, but can't prove. [21:12] Very true. But in one of the untrustworthy books, the author describe about taking glass spheres, applying a thin coat of black glass paint. You hang it in a tree with a tea candle and at night it looks like the flames is floating in air. [21:13] That sounds like a good way to get a broken glass sphere. [21:13] (Heat from the candle can mess with the glass) [21:14] One of the things I’ve come to realize is that because Druidry has lost so much we really are left to our devices in how we progress forward [21:14] And what we leave behind for future generations [21:15] I mean, yes, we've lost a lot, but there's a great deal the recons have dug up that is a good foundation to build on. [21:15] Which works if you are reading them for arts and crafts inspiration. But if you are reading them for anything more than that, if you aren't taking into account the bias to make up supporting history, you propagate it [21:15] True. [21:15] It becomes the Iolo problem [21:16] I think if we applied the most modern day technological research methods with archeological records we can get a better idea of what happened back then [21:17] I'm also okay with not being a strict to back then--Living religions adapt and grow and evolve [21:17] But misrepresenting then to support what you want now makes me cringe [21:17] Which is exactly what the recons and scholars have been doing. As for the relationship between paleopagans and neopagans, we can of course change things, but better to change things on purpose than by accident. [21:18] Although that said, since ADF is kinda sorta an offshoot of RDNA, I sometimes call us "Reformed Reformed Druids". [21:18] I agree it does become the lolo problem but if we don’t contribute something then it’s probably worse. Even the ancient druids added things over time, we should be no different [21:20] My husband has some pretty deep ties to India--if you want to talk about the sort of lingering damage misrepresentation does, you should look at the after effects of Theosophism and the Nazis... [21:20] It is fine to add, but to then change the past to to support your addition? [21:20] And we’ve already made some changes that are either outdated or illegal. As long as we let future generations know “hey we weren’t sure so we did this and it worked for us...” I think we can avoid the lolo problem at least [21:21] That to me seems reasonable--that is part of it being a living tradition [21:21] I think the past should always be passed on even if it’s not pretty from incest to human sacrifice [21:22] I'm actually thinking of writing an article about India and cultural appropriation and misrepresentation in New Age materials. It's noticeable painful to compare the difference between real Indian culture and foreigners' version of it. [21:23] I want to make it clear, ADF doesn’t condone or encourage that kind of behavior but it does tell a PG-13 accurate version of history [21:23] There is a high ranking Indian politician that is trying to take back yoga for the Indian culture. [21:23] And more importantly the changes we’ve made since [21:24] He has a YouTube channel where is is teaching yoga in Indian language with only Indian faces. [21:24] Thexalon: Starting with simply oversimplification--It is a big place with many schools of thought. But most people only are aware of the ones that were popularized in the West because the British (and later Germans) liked them [21:24] Oh Rovena that was the bad news, the white supremacy thing is getting worse with the Norse and Heathen traditions do you know how this will go for us [21:24] One thing I always liked about ADF's approach is that we'll say things like "This part of what we're doing today, we made up, because it seemed to make sense." Just being honest about that was a big plus. [21:25] That honesty is key to me. [21:25] I mean, everything was made up by someone at some time [21:25] It shouldn't affect us and ADF has a clearly no tolerance policy for racism [21:25] I saw Brewer’s Guild and orthopratic and I was home [21:26] Just don't claim the support of Ancient Irish Potato Goddess for legitimacy [21:26] Cool [21:26] DebbrahFoxveil LOL [21:26] It is easy to say there is a no tolerance policy--harder to do [21:27] Publically I think we will be ok, it’s how white supremacist will deal with it or try to use ADF to hide their activities [21:27] Using the India example--can you say you are not being colonialist and western and patronizing when you forbid the swastika? [21:27] There are conflicting forms of racism [21:27] The Ancient Irish Potato Goddess only supports all things potato. Anything else is out of her jurisdiction [21:28] And she is a time traveler--slowly spreading the potato earlier and wider [21:28] until she achieves global domination [21:28] I am reasonably certain that people have been booted out of ADF for racism. Certainly people have been nudged out the door after learning we didn't do that. [21:28] Will I need to run. Til next time we meet. [21:29] The swastika is an ancient rune but that is a tough call since most wouldn’t know that [21:29] Most white americans [21:29] Night Rovena [21:29] Night [21:29] COntext is a big thing. [21:29] *** rovena (rovena@sorcery-a5c.njf.45.67.IP) has quit IRC [Quit:] [21:29] yes--burt a blanket ban does not allow for context [21:30] Alas, I'm pretty sure the swastika is beyond reclaiming. The current fights are over tiwaz, othala, and a few other runes now being appropriated by Neo-nazis. [21:30] Keep in mind there are a lot of Americans with some German ancestry. One guy I know is caught between a rock and hard place because he loves Norse paganism and it’s part of his heritage but he isn’t racist and doesn’t like how things are [21:31] That is the Runes. But the swastika has thousands of yeas of use in Indic spirituality and isn't going anywhere [21:31] And what’s worse is there are a lot of mixed heritage people who normally would practice some form of Norse paganism but don’t because of everything going on [21:32] Hitler ruined it 80 years ago but it’s been in use for over 5,000 [21:32] Most German-Americans (myself included) are descended from folks that arrived in the 1840's, a full century before the Nazis. That was due to a series of peasant revolts that turned out badly. [21:32] Every time someone only sees it as the Nazi use, it dismisses an entire continent and a huge population as being irrelevant [21:32] A living, unbroken, modern tradition of use [21:33] I know that the swastika has other uses. I also know we cannot just use it without causing a lot of controversy. For example, there was a recent brouhaha over in the Society for Creative Anachronism over the use of the symbol, not all that prominently, on some garb. [21:34] In a way, trying to avoid racism in that way is racist--only the white european version counts [21:34] I know--which is my point. It is easy to say no tolerance. But enforcing it is messy because there are competing claims [21:35] Well I’m recommending we at least keep a watchful out and remain proactive regarding our stance against racism. This country fought a world war over this and I don’t think we should underestimate the seriousness and potential fallout from this [21:36] There's some controversy I've encountered within ADF over exactly what role the Vedic culture should play, precisely because there's also a living ongoing tradition that most ADFers aren't involved in. [21:38] It really (at first glance) can look like ADF is just trying to whitewash itself--like it only really wants the European part of Indo-European But is settling for tolerating the brown parts [21:38] Not saying that is what it is doing, but it can look like it [21:38] We are descendants of surviving pagans because we stayed ahead of things like this. If history has taught us anything after losing the war it’s that if we want to continue existing we should definitely keep an eye out and make sure everyone knows we don’t support or stand with racists. It may be reverse racism but if they choose a path of hatred and bigotry they are on their own. [21:39] Reverse racism to not allow colonialists to dictate the meaning of your sacred symbols? [21:39] Because that is what it is to the Indians [21:40] I’m sure things with the church in ancient times didn’t start with mass executions but it did start somewhere and we all know how it ended and pagans were the first to go [21:41] Well, heretics usually went first. Pagans were usually a lower priority [21:41] idx Not really accurate: Christians went after Muslims and Jews far more than pagans, at least until the Northern Crusades. [21:41] Well DebbrahFoxveil, I won’t say how individuals use or interpret the symbology but ADF symbology is something we should have a say on if only to protect ourselves [21:42] So--do we remain eurocentric [21:42] That is the question [21:43] I know we weren’t first but we were on the list and we are on this one [21:43] We tend to be Eurocentric, but it's not because there's no element of the Asian side of things. [21:43] India [21:43] If you throw away India, you are choosing to only keep one side [21:43] And Indo-Iranians, and Hittites, and several other cultures. [21:43] We will definitely remain indo-European [21:44] And for what it's worth, the Eastern Gate Kin is the ADF subgroup dedicated to exploring those cultures. [21:45] Yeah.... sigh [21:45] I'm sure they mean well [21:45] It's not "throwing away India", but it is recognizing that you're not going to understand Indian religion unless you hang around a Hindu temple for a while. And understand how Vedism evolved into Hinduism. [21:46] While imposing purity test on them that don't apply to the others [21:46] My main concern is that we live and practice a religion that has an element of Norse paganism in a modern day climate where white supremacy is looking for anything Norse as a place to hide. I don’t trust that the average person will see much of a distinction and that’s usually the first person to grab a pitchfork and torch [21:46] Summerlands 2016 included a very nice Vedic rite, with Agni as one of the key deities of the occasion. [21:47] By the standards that are applied to the Vedic materials, Homer would be gone [21:47] Snori and anything Celtic? Forget about them [21:47] Because you can't use 1 symbol? [21:47] No--that is just symbolic [21:48] I'm talking about the standards used to decide what counts as appropriate ADF generally with them [21:49] To us, we know the truth behind the symbol but to a group like anti-fa, that’s an easy excuse to punch a Druid thinking their punching nazis [21:49] What besides the swastika do you believe is banned from ADF Vedic practice? [21:50] I will say this in our defense because we also embrace the Welsh hearth that helps a lot [21:50] Which goes back to the question of what are the goals--to avoid controversy or actually not be racist. The first is a lot easier. The second is very messy and involves a lot of grey [21:51] DebbrahFoxveil What exactly do you want to do but feel you can't? Is it just using the swastika, or is there something else? [21:52] I think we can do the second without the mess. The grey...well...welcome to Druid leadership training 101 [21:52] I'm a philosopher by training--it is more a mater of I can spot arbitrary and contradictory reasoning at a 1000 paces ; [21:52] ;) [21:53] 😀 [21:53] Also, what racism were you referring to in Homer? Because I know Homer quite well, and there's little if any mention of race in it. [21:54] We don’t have the same numbers as many other religious groups so we have to be twice as vigilant and prepared in case of trouble [21:54] And the decision regarding which materials and deities are considered appropriate is very arbitrary. If you don't allow the Upanishads and Mahabharata, you have slim/nonexistant arguments for Homer or anything Roman and certainly nothing Norse or Celtic. At least if you apply the same standards across the board [21:56] I'm not saying Homer is racist--Just he and Hesiod and such are just privileged in a way the Vedic documents are not. [21:57] From the Dedicant's Reading List: "Religion and Philosophy of the Veda and Upanishads (2 Volumes)" A.B. Keith. Seems like they're included. [21:57] It comes down to, IMO, the Vedic ones are still at a real level seen as exotic outsiders and the European ones seen as core. [21:58] *** idx (idx@sorcery-nsli5b.iu8l.c6sq.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [21:58] Q: What does ADF consider "Vedic"? A: The consensus is that it consists of the earliest texts starting with the Four Vedas (Rig, Sama, Yajur and Atharva), and continuing through the Brahmanas, Aranyakas, early Upanishads, and then the Shrauta Sutras and Grihya Sutras. The date range is from 1500-300 BCE. There are some in ADF who prefer to limit it to just [21:59] https://www.adf.org/members/kins/eastern-gate/faq-adf-eastern-gate-kin-aus-dhwer.html [21:59] Vedic folks are a minority in ADF, but are not seen as outside what we do, at least in my experience. I know for a fact that at least 2 archdruids have studied Indian religion quite extensively. [21:59] What Celtic or Norse Material do we have from 300 BCE? [21:59] None. The Hellenic material is mostly from 300 BCE, though. [22:00] A lot of the Greek stuff starts at the latest date the vedic ends [22:00] *** idx (idx@sorcery-nsli5b.iu8l.c6sq.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #ADF [22:01] Well it’s late and I have to take a shower and do some more stuff before bed. Night everyone 😀 [22:01] The Greek stuff actually mostly ends at around the 300 BCE. By then, Alexander the Great has come and gone. The reason for this, which if you know the history of Indian religion, is that Hinduism is not Vedism, and is mostly not Indo-European. [22:01] Night [22:01] *** idx (idx@sorcery-nsli5b.iu8l.c6sq.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [22:03] By what measure are you making it not indo-European. And then I would ask you to think carefully if you are applying the same criteria to places such as Greece and Rome and Ireland and the Germanic tribes [22:04] An example from Europe: Worship of the Egyptian deity Isis was quite common throughout Europe, but isn't a part of ADF's practice. [22:04] Yes--Is Minerva IE? [22:05] Is Cybele? [22:05] I'm not well-versed enough with her to know for sure on that one. [22:06] I can tell you that stuff that was used by I-E cultures that was part of the pre-I-E substrate (e.g. Aphrodite) is generally included, stuff glommed on well after I-E was established in an area usually isn't. [22:07] So by that criteria, everything pre-islamic in India should count... [22:08] See what I mean? We accept the Vanir and Etruscan and Phonecian influences but decry the Dravidian [22:09] In any event, I need to go to bed too. [22:09] *** Thexalon (Mibbit@sorcery-a890t0.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [22:09] Yeah--I'm at the early end of the world. [22:10] So goodnight to you there at the late end [22:10] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] *** Closed channel log for #ADF at 2018-04-11 10:26:45 AM