*** Opened channel log for #adf at 1/14/2007 8:57:10 PM [20:57] yeah those pesky things like offspring and eating.. lol [20:59] [Aelcian] Well, We want to get started? I'm not sure if I can contribute much to the discussion as I am a solitary but I have been unable to begin the even the DP in earnest thanks to my job in the navy... [20:59] *** KellyP (KellyP@14055a92.14055a74.12.37.imsk) has joined #adf [20:59] Good evening! [20:59] *** Trista (Trista@fbdfb1bd.dhcp.a3d59c23.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [20:59] Welcome Trista [20:59] *** ArthurShipkowski (ArthurShi@71f1ce44.altnpa.east.36f5c1fe.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [20:59] thank you [20:59] [Aelcian] Evening.. How are all.. [20:59] Welcome ArthurShipkowski [21:00] I am well but tired of waiting for a flight home. [21:00] well, good evening to you [21:00] Doing alright myself, thanks for the last minute reminder Aelcian. [21:00] [Aelcian] ugh... I know how that feels... [21:00] [Aelcian] np... I try to make the reminders timely enough.. ;) [21:00] *** valen (valen@221b3e55.dsl.stlsmo.f55b92fc.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [21:00] Welcome valen [21:01] Yeah I would have forgetten without the reminder [21:01] Good evening everyone. [21:01] Hello. [21:01] [Aelcian] Glad it was timely... :D [21:01] *** RoseDrake (RoseDrake@ebed6f46.bflony.d75a346f.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: RoseDrake] [21:02] I was busily trying to find the original post when the reminder arrived. It was like "poof" and my questions were answered. [21:02] *** Beth (bsavage@7665e490.bflony.d75a346f.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [21:03] Was there a subtopic under solitary practice that we were going to start with? [21:03] [Aelcian] Well, for what it's worth, tonight's discussion is on solitary practices. Is there any particular aspect of the Solitary practices that we want to start off with? [21:04] [Aelcian] lol.. [21:04] [Aelcian] Was in the middle of typing that... [21:04] [Aelcian] No subtopic.. I intentionally made it a broad topic so we arent tied down to one thing... [21:05] [Aelcian] How bout we start with who's a solitary here? [21:05] * KellyP raises his hand [21:05] <~~~~~ right here [21:05] Um... Me? [21:06] count me ni [21:06] in [21:06] [Aelcian] Myself as well [21:06] I've been solitary in the past, but I'm currently in a grove. [21:06] i am also in a grove [21:07] [Aelcian] So at least some experience as a solitary... that's good.. I think?.. lol [21:07] not done anything solitary yet [21:07] Gosh, it's been a while since I used IRC, but I am...technically. I hold open High Day rites, but my regulars are a Discordian who calls himself a pseudopagan, and a lovely UU woman who might learn the OOR in a few years. [21:07] (She had a stroke a few years back, and her memory is not so good now.) [21:07] kool.. i am also uu and a bit of a discordian [21:07] sounds like the beginning of a bad joke hahaha [21:07] subgenius discordian [21:08] [Aelcian] oh dear.. lol [21:08] Specifically within ADF, because there is such a focus on groves, does anyone have trouble working by themselves or feel "left out"? [21:09] I have never had that feeling. [21:09] not on this end [21:09] [Aelcian] Not really, though my wife and I are the only ones in the near vacinity... [21:09] i have not had that feeling... do a bit of stuff in the rituals but have yet to log my experiences [21:09] Neither have I specifically but I think it's easier to be a solitary wiccan than druid [21:10] why neithernor? [21:10] Really? Why would that be? [21:10] there is more material written for the solitary wiccan and only a few works for the solitary druid [21:10] I seems like there is more information for a solitary wiccan than a solitary druid, it is started to even out, but the bulk of it is geared toward wiccan pagans that have no group or support system [21:11] very true! [21:12] [Aelcian] While I suppose that's true, imho, as a solitary wiccan, there is the possibility of falling prey to fluff stuff a lot more often than in a organization like ADF... [21:13] The big issue I've noted is that the pre-written solitary rites within ADF is mostly by a single person, and has a very similar feel to all of it therefore. Plus it is Celtic Fire Festivals/Norse solar holidays. [21:13] That is very true, but solitaries, in the truest sense, usually don't join groups like adf to begin with [21:13] I use the ADF site as a source for rituals and adapt many to solitary use. [21:13] I think they do at first for grounding and formal training or direction [21:13] I've found that as well Arthur, and to a beginner on the druid path writting you own ritual seems daunting [21:14] I wanted -- truly wanted -- to write an article on writing your own ritual for newbies for the latest Oak Leaves, but it was not within my grasp. [21:15] I think wicaan outlining, basically, makes it more user friendly to be a solitary than within druidry but that is just my opinion [21:15] i have found the adf site very good source for stuff as far as rituals ... taking what is there and then rewording it to your liking.... even though i am not a solitary it is a great source i have found [21:15] [Aelcian] Agreed.. And I do wonder if the reason more people haven't written and published more solitary templates is because of the OOR, or just the overall feeling that one might get ridiculed if it were put up on the website.. I know we have a lot of scholarship here and I don't think that ridicule would happen, but I am sure that the fear is not uncommon. [21:15] It can be useful, but finding all the right resources can be rough. [21:16] i do agree with that also... outside of adf i find myself scrambling for stuff online [21:16] When I posted my first cut'n'paste rite to adf-liturgists, I got feedback that was firm, but not unkind. [21:16] Are you subscribed to the ADF solitaires email list? [21:16] I would like to see something explaining how to write your own - using a template seems to be impersonal and being a solitare personal is what you are looking for [21:16] NeitherNor -- what do you mean by Wiccan outlining vis-a-vis the OOR? [21:16] do they have an elist? Didn't know that [21:17] [Aelcian] I am.. [21:17] ADF-LITURGISTS -- see http://www.adf.org/members/forums/subscribe.html -- you need not join the guild to read it. [21:18] As far as writing and preforming a ritual, from what i've seen of druid ritual, they work better with more people and have a larger format than that of a wiccan ritual, but the only druid rituals i have seen have been adf format so please excuse the generalization [21:19] Well I have never participated in a group ritual with the ADF format so it seems like a natural solitary format to me. :D [21:19] [Aelcian] I actually have yet to see an ADF ritual, thanks to the relative isolation that I live in here in Florida .. and what's worse is I rarely get a chance to go out of town to attend one thanks to the Navy. [21:19] and this is all just personal perspective, i could just be talking out my hoohoo [21:19] Ouch. I've been lucky -- I have multiple groves 3-4 hours away and have been to two festivals at this point. [21:19] [Aelcian] Personal experiences are part of solitary practice and thus encouraged.. lol [21:20] But your personal perspective is the most important. [21:20] there is no solitare option on the subscribe list - am I missing something? [21:20] NeitherNor, I think I understand where you are coming from -- part of it is that a lot of what's written isn't cut down. Even the solitary rites by Anthony Thompson, while nice, feel a bit...big. [21:20] On the subscription list look for a checkbox for ADF-Solitaries. [21:21] Well for me, a High Day rite takes an average of 47 minutes. [21:21] I was going to do the solitary yule ritual from the website, but it was a tad too big for what i was looking for so I went completely natural for it [21:21] But then I expect High Day rites to be large. [21:21] there is no such box; general, regional, and subscription options [21:21] Which solitary Yule? [21:21] [Aelcian] Does (pardon the pun) size really matter for the rites? [21:22] I found that Dangler's solitary Yule (scroll down in http://www.adf.org/members/guilds/liturgists/yearbooks/2004/ ) was much more nicely sized than average. [21:22] I think if you're unfamiliar with the OOR, it can. Not seeing the forest for the trees and all that. [21:22] (Am I too chatty?) [21:22] of all the things hard to find as a solitary I find the hardest thing to find information for rituals within certain hearths [21:23] Which hearths specifically? [21:23] * Aelcian nods [21:23] I think it was danglers [21:24] mine is Celtic, hubby Norse - we both have problems [21:24] alot of ADF stuff has a mix of the hearths in everything / I think it causes for confusion [21:24] I can from an eclectic wiccan background so it's almost like learning everything all over again... it gets scary lol [21:25] * KellyP is trying to take notes [21:25] I guess it goes along with ADF being directed to groups where everyone needs a little touch of thier own hearth [21:25] I've found adapting rites to Norse easily; but I occasionally draw inspiration from Our Troth. I wrote my own Walpurgisnacht rite, for example. [21:25] but as a solitare it stirs the pot so to speak alot [21:25] [Aelcian] I have trouble with Celtic stuff as well, though it seems that certain dieties took a liking to me from the get-go [21:25] How so? [21:26] * Aelcian has logging on so the transcript can be posted to the ADF website later on.. [21:26] My thing is I am trying to figure out the dieties, this is a hard thing [21:26] Much of this relates to work I have been doing trying to convert the past liturgist's yearbook materials into html for the ADF site. [21:26] That;s where i get my trouble from because I am solely Greek pantheon [21:27] I know they are more or less divided into 3 time periods, but then when you go to the different areas have changes it gets a little harder [21:27] [Aelcian] Hmm, just overall attributes? or the Godden in general? Anything in particular you have trouble with? [21:27] Kelly, if you ever need some help with that I would be willing to help out - love websites & HTML [21:28] I'm not sure what you mean, Trista? Do you mean paleo-, meso-, and neo? [21:29] no I am talking about the mythology itself [21:29] *** Arial (Arial@a6ddf382.dsl.mdsnwi.3e6fd2e2.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [21:30] *** JenP (JenP@7ff79491.c3-0.rdl-ubr3.trpr-rdl.pa.cable.6ca6e6e8.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [21:30] If you come with a personal knowledge of a certain mythology, celtic mythology can be a little hard to digest [21:30] [Aelcian] I am not sure of exactly how scholarship based they are, but I have found http://pantheon.org/ to be a great help.. [21:30] they're iffy [21:30] mythological cycle, Ulaid cycle, and the Fenion cycle [21:31] Ah, ok. [21:31] I have been looking at timeless myths - anyone know if they are correct?\ [21:31] I have a copy of Ian's Celtic Sorcery book, which seems to have a section on the Irish deities that seems a bit clearer; but then I've wound up Norse, so add salt. [21:31] Anyone know of a really really really good celtic myth book??? [21:32] I've never heard of "timeless myths"- are the known by another name? [21:32] lol arthur [21:32] website - www.timeless.com [21:32] no [21:32] timelessmyths.com [21:32] I've been searching for a book as well [21:33] i like celtic mythology by proinsias maccana [21:33] *** Polarity (Polarity@6352c64b.dhcp.almg.nm.4e125616.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [21:33] it might be out of print, but i got mine on half.com [21:33] For Welsh, you've got the Mabinogian. [21:33] they have other mythology too [21:33] Thanks, Trista. I've never seen this site before. [21:34] *** Polarity is now known as Visitor-11ED [21:34] yw - but I can't say how correct they are - seem to be to me but I am fairly new at things [21:34] I've found Mary Jones' Celtic Dictionary helpful just for a quick yea/nay: http://www.maryjones.us/jce/jce_index.html [21:35] jotting down link - thanks [21:37] Are there any pros and cons of being solitary or being part of a grove? [21:38] great site ... bookmarked [21:38] [Aelcian] I've no experiene with a grove so I couldn't say on my end.. [21:38] *** Visitor-11ED is now known as Polarity-ADF [21:38] being in a grove, you can get a lot more juice out of ritual, if everyone works together [21:39] on the con side, you are more prone to other people's whims [21:39] For me, the necessity of being a solitaire removes the opportunity for a social connection combined with my spirituality. [21:39] i konw some stuff about Lugh (my grove's patron deity) but not much...other than that i am still learning about Celtic pantheon [21:39] and norse, and hellenic [21:39] Pro to being solitary, provided you aren't holding open rites ;-): scheduling. [21:39] I'm a solitary because of my geographical location [21:39] I'm new, but from what I see going maybe once a year to an actual ritual with a group is good - experience & for fresh ideas (with chatting before and after) [21:40] * JenP nods to Art [21:40] I like the social aspect of groves. [21:40] Scheduling is nice for a solitaire. As is setting for the rite. [21:40] i found it easier to skip rituals as a solitary [21:40] when wasn't so great for me :) [21:41] i'm sure you guys are much more disciplined [21:41] One thing that would be nice about being in a grove would be collaboration... I am not much of a ritual planner [21:41] I use high day holiday in the home - certain traditions I will follow in the family - these are a constant reminder to prepare for a ritual [21:41] that's excellent trista [21:41] ty [21:42] It also brings together people who have different strengths- which makes it a very different experience for me. [21:42] [Aelcian] I think collaboration could still take place via the internet with other solitaries, Arial... don't you? [21:42] As a solitaire, I often have this nagging feeling of "Am I doing this right?" [21:42] aside from scheduling a date for a ritual, one thing nice about solitary ritual is you can spend as much actual time doing it as you like [21:42] Pro to groves: feedback on everything, especially as ritual leader. [21:43] you can sit in meditation for 20 mins or 2 if you want [21:43] Well, I haven't experimented with online collaboration but would like to. [21:43] you don't have to wait for people to attune, or finish giving praise offerings [21:43] so you may have a much more natural flow as a sol [21:43] I think groves don't practice things enough - most only get together for high days - leaving every member a solitare other than that [21:43] That is what ive' seen of it [21:44] [Aelcian] Nice to know.. [21:44] This is why I think I will only attend one ritual with a 'group' per year [21:44] Most schedules I've read (heh) have Lore days in advance where things are discussed. That is one of the reasons I don't just up and join one of those three-hours-away groves; I'd only be able to show for High Days. [21:44] Me too. [21:44] * JenP stares at Art [21:44] ditto Arthur [21:45] [Aelcian] Same here.. closest one is about 300 miles away [21:45] wow [21:45] <- 3 hours away from Art [21:45] * ArthurShipkowski looks innocent. [21:45] [Aelcian] lol... oh.. that's why the stare... [21:45] all the more reason for you to start your own [21:45] * Aelcian shakes his head [21:46] I think being a solitare means over time you create more of a dedication to your beliefs and have seasoned yourself to connecting more intense bonds with the dieties of your choice [21:46] That is actually a topic that I thought might come up -- starting your own protogrove. [21:46] * ArthurShipkowski thinks JenP is all sorts of awesome for running her own PG. [21:46] in my area there has been some discussion about it [21:46] oh god, no [21:46] * ArthurShipkowski and for moderating the list. [21:46] But I think most folks would feel more comfortable starting their own groves if they had some experience with group ritual beforehand. [21:47] I have considered starting one but it would depend on the time commitment. [21:47] Heh. Yes. That is why I recommend, no matter what you think of the list experience...try to get to an ADF festival. Opened my eyes greatly. [21:47] i agree with that - get to a festival if you can [21:47] [Aelcian] Agreed, KellyP [21:47] If the would schedule their festival calendar to my convenience, I would SO be there! [21:47] I think that most people who wants the solitare route and people who do it because of lack of grove both choose to be solitares because of the personalization it gives religion [21:47] NeitherNor -- are you near sans_mal and delphinastar? [21:47] Where is the annual meeting this year? Wellspring? [21:47] is there a list of festivals on the website? or is it grove by grove basis [21:48] there is a list neither [21:48] let me see if i can find it [21:48] thanks thanks thanks [21:48] That's interesting, Trista... [21:48] I still can't find the link to sign up for ADF solitares - can someone send me an invite or something after this chat? [21:48] sign up for the list? [21:49] Trista, are you using the Java client? [21:49] yes [21:49] i can do it for you [21:49] ty [21:49] There should be a red button with my name on it at the bottom -- click it and you'll see a message from me about it. [21:49] trista, private message me and give me your member # or email addy [21:50] I must warn you that the email list is incredibly silent. I think it would be great if many of the issues here were brought up on the list. [21:50] yeah it's been pretty dead lately [21:50] you mean like a solitary forum? [21:50] i thought i unsubscribed myself and had to check the other day [21:50] We have a pretty good crew of techno-geeks and maybe there is more to be done in helping the solitaires. [21:51] does anyone know the ratio of purely solitaries to grove members? [21:51] * Aelcian arches a brow at the techno-geeks comment.. [21:52] *** Cadarisc (Cadarisc@fc686084.plspca.dsl-w.36f5c1fe.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [21:52] I know we have an LJ community for the DP, maybe we need to start one for sols. [21:52] That's a good idea, Kelly [21:52] that would be interesting [21:52] That might be easier -- we should get, uh, whats his name, who took an oath to help sols out but got little response on the list. [21:53] I might be wrong but I think someone recently said it's about half the ADF population perhaps [21:53] I would have thought that to be a lot smaller [21:53] it being solitaries [21:55] Hmm, you can't search the members list based on Grove. [21:55] *** Cadarisc (Cadarisc@fc686084.plspca.dsl-w.36f5c1fe.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Client Quit] [21:56] I know Anthony is working on a Google map of the membership to show the distribution of folks. [21:56] you can't? [21:56] That might eventually provide an idea of those who are close to groves vs though distant. [21:56] [Aelcian] Yes, he is.. not quite finished as I can tell... [21:56] that would be awesome [21:56] that sounds interesting [21:57] Intriguing. [21:58] I thought there were some old maps of population by state, which while not the same..is something. [21:58] How many of the sols on here have watched Ian's performance of a basic ritual on YouTube.com? [21:58] neither, if you look at the homepage of adf, there's a list of upcoming festivals [21:58] oh ok [21:58] I have [21:58] those maps weren't updated [21:58] it was more of a snapshot [21:58] I have a link but have not watched yet [21:59] Yes, I have watched it and it's a fanatastic thing Ian did putting that up. [21:59] the ritual was helpful in seeing it done as a solitare and a visual aid in the steps of ritual [21:59] I have watched it. It was decent, but I thought a video of the simple solitary devotional might have been less overwhelming. [22:00] [Aelcian] Haven't had the opportunity currently. Being in the middle of the ocean can kinda put a damper on bandwidth... [22:00] I use the simple devotional often. [22:00] There was at least some talk about making a DVD, but I don't know how hard it would be to author one. [22:01] With me when I started, I would've been just happy to share with another Pagan... and having that video has more than just the effect of learning how to perform and ADF style personal rite for folks who are remote [22:01] I like the utube idea - free and accessable from home when you need it [22:01] *** Beej (Beej@84349188.stny.res.14056255.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [22:01] BEEJ! [22:01] Evening. [22:02] I would have loved to have that video when I started, I'm so glad they threw it up on YouTube [22:02] Alright everyone, I'm getting going. My Lj is "neithernor1" if anyone wants to keep in touch... good night! [22:02] The video confirmed that I was on the right track in my personal works. I thought it was a great thing. [22:03] cool will do [22:03] The hardest thing as far as learning for me as a solitare is finding the reliable and 'exact fit' of resource for questions [22:03] What do you mean by the 'exact fit'? [22:03] Good night NeitherNor. [22:03] good night [22:03] bye NN [22:03] Good night [22:03] night [22:03] toodles [22:03] meaning to answer me question - the exact question I have [22:03] *** NeitherNor (NeitherNo@c68b9dc5.hsd1.pa.5aa6454b.net.hmsk) has left #adf [22:04] That is a problem for everyone I would guess, Trista. [22:04] There is a huge amount of data out there [22:04] I think a list of reliable authors, companies, and things like that would be a little help in those situations [22:04] knowing what suits can be tricky sometimes, that's for sure [22:05] Having a mentor would be a ownderful thing. To act as a Senior Druid ... [22:05] companies? [22:05] companies that put out information [22:05] [Aelcian] Rated against scholarship parhaps? [22:05] Maybe we need virtual groves. Find a few folks willing to mentor along small groups of solitaires. [22:05] yes [22:05] maybe like wikipedia? :> [22:05] Sounds good to me. [22:05] wikipedia isn't reliable [22:06] they are just articles readers wrote [22:06] there are the recommended reading lists [22:06] i agree [22:06] [Aelcian] It's only as reliable as the editors at any given point. [22:06] I do like the reading lists ... finished one of the book .... just need to get my own copy of the book [22:06] There are Dedicant Mentors...maybe there need to be Solitary Mentors. [22:06] Amazingly enough. So is the Encyclopedia Britannica. [22:06] true also [22:06] yes, but even with recommended readign lists they only give suggested reading - these may not touch the topic you are looking for [22:07] that's why we have 40 million lists [22:07] [Aelcian] Maybe a list of good books on a number of hearth cultures? [22:07] what do you mean 40 million lists? [22:08] *** ADFGuest6357 (ADFGuest63@6ca5ed17.6ca5f03e.200.155.imsk) has joined #adf [22:08] You know, I have this tacky habit of checking behind resources, no matter where I read [22:08] Welcome, Inmate 6357. [22:08] http://www.adf.org/members/forums/subscribe.html [22:08] Aelcian - there are books for the different hearths on the list but I feel they cover it as an overal view and not a lot into specifics [22:08] there are mailing lists for many of the hearth cultures [22:08] *** AnthonyRThompson (jircii@d53815aa.ri.ri.6ca6b017.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [22:08] I haven't had many questions other than about cosmology [22:08] ANTHONY! [22:08] * Aelcian nods to anthony [22:08] Welcome AnthonyRThompson [22:09] I think what you are saying Trista, is that there is data but not synthesis to what you need? [22:09] exactly [22:09] *** ADFGuest6357 is ADFGuest63@6ca5ed17.6ca5f03e.200.155.imsk (ADF Java IRC Guest) [22:09] *** ADFGuest6357 is on channels: #adf [22:09] *** ADFGuest6357 is on server terra.sorcery.net (Houston, TX, USA) [22:10] Do you mean, books that put the information we have to use in the ADF framework? [22:11] *** Polarity (Polarity@6352c64b.dhcp.almg.nm.4e125616.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [22:11] [Aelcian] Hmm... we seem to be bi-polar to day... lol [22:11] that wasn't what I was saying - but - since you brought that up it would be nice to have a in-depth book about ritual within ADF covering all aspects (hearth differences, proceedure, how to write your own without a template, etc..;.) woudl be great [22:12] lol [22:12] that's so wrong [22:12] * Aelcian shrugs [22:12] I was just detecting a change in the room's Polarity. [22:12] [Aelcian] could't help it.. [22:12] *** ADFGuest6357 (ADFGuest63@6ca5ed17.6ca5f03e.200.155.imsk) has quit IRC [Client Quit] [22:12] *** Polarity-ADF (Polarity@6352c64b.dhcp.almg.nm.4e125616.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] [22:12] *** Polarity is now known as Nonick-12125 [22:12] *** Endovelicon (Endovelico@6ca5ed17.6ca5f03e.200.155.imsk) has joined #adf [22:13] Welcome Endovelicon [22:13] Did this current discussion stem from the survey re: a possible into booklet for the new membership packets? [22:13] [Aelcian] woah.. [22:13] Nope. Didn't know there was such a survey. [22:13] [Aelcian] I don't think it did... [22:13] [Aelcian] Me neither [22:14] they're just psychic [22:14] It was an informal thing, posted on the leadership list, that some grove leaders were sending out to their grovies [22:14] apparently! [22:14] I saw the survey [22:15] I was actually aware of this due to my new subscription to ADF-GOSSIP. ;-) [22:15] That MUST be a popular list. [22:15] Ah [22:15] [Aelcian] lol... now I KNOW that one wasn't on the subscription list [22:15] I get that in digest form ;) [22:15] I usually get it, but it's always a few months late. [22:15] *** Nonick-12125 (Polarity@6352c64b.dhcp.almg.nm.4e125616.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] [22:16] so what was this about data but not synthesis, or whatever it was I came in on? [22:16] BUt, I was just trying to catch up on the conversation and Trista's question [22:16] The idea, I think, was that the reading list books give people alot of data, but it isn't always clear how to put that data into something useful. [22:17] To answer specific questions like one may get answered by asking members of a grove or a Senior Druid. [22:17] Ah. Which reading list, the general "suggested reading list" in the membership guide, or the list in the DP? [22:17] both [22:18] I was suggesting that for a solitare it would be nice to have a list of reputable authors and other resources which could be accessed when we have specific questions [22:18] So what would do it then, more articles/webpages, recordings of workshops, videos, ? [22:18] Like mentors? [22:18] So, more along the lines of... "I've read all these tales. Now what do I do with it?" [22:19] [Aelcian] I think that would do the trick Anthony [22:19] I have suggested virtual grove-like relationships between a volunteer and a number of solitaires. [22:19] Anthony, there was some discussion of mentors for solitaries. [22:19] We have also discussion of an LJ group for ADF-solitaires. [22:19] which one would do the trick (or D: all of the above? :) [22:19] Maybe we should have a mailing list for sols [22:19] you have menotors, but that is during your training - you come up with questions all the time [22:19] oh wait, we already do ;) [22:20] And I believe there has been an effort to get some here onto the mailing lists. [22:20] It's fuinny that I was talking over dinner abou the fact that there is no distinction between posters on the DP and other lists... so that those posting questinos can know if the response is from a mentor or another student [22:20] So do you mean to say pre- and post-DP mentors then? [22:20] * Aelcian is working on a summary email of the topics broached here to jumpstart said list [22:21] we could ask people to put their mentor status in their sigs I guess :-/ [22:21] I don't think the DP factors into this much. The mentors we are discussing are just mentoring the solitaire life of an ADFer. [22:21] use the Sols LIst [22:21] nobody has been using it! [22:21] I know, that's what I was referring to a few seconds ago ;) [22:21] It's certainly one of my quieter lists. [22:21] hate to be anti-sol, but if the sol becomes a grove organizer s/he will get a mentor [22:21] yeah, it was mentioned before you popped on too [22:22] * KellyP pokes the Sols emails list [22:22] not that s/he should have to do that, of course, but it is one thing :) [22:22] I was thinking that solitares come up with a lot of questions - they do a lot of research which leads them in undetermined directions so it would be nice if they were looking for something particuluar they could access a list of reputable writers to see if there was something they are looking for by that person or check if what they want is from a good source [22:22] it was just an idea, nothing major [22:22] Does geographical proximity matter? [22:22] there are people on the sols list with a lot of experience, not just other sols [22:22] No, I think it's an important idea [22:22] If you have that feeling, no doubt many others do as well [22:23] From my experience, it took me more than a year to get over a sort of initmidation factor regarding ADF. It seemed so large that I really didn't know where to interact with it. [22:23] Aren't the suggested reading lists basically lists of reputable writers along with specific recommended titles? [22:24] The lists always seemed to be more book specific rahter than author specific. [22:24] Me too, Kelly (although there were other factors too) [22:25] I gotta say... when I first joined, I felt the same... if it weren't for the fact that I managed to go to Trillium... [22:25] It may be because even the best authors vary in their works - it might not be easy to make a blanket statement that "every book by X is reliable" because that may not be true for ANY author - which might be why the reading lists come across that way [22:25] I have a mentor who is great, however, being a solitare as I learn I want to find a way to find my own answers because I can't use my mentor forever [22:25] ...and that Francesca took me around and introduced me to all sorts of people, I might have remained that way for much longer [22:26] And when I joined I was energized to "do stuff". But then as a solitaire you face a large mountain to climb to get to the "doing stuff" part. [22:26] what kind of "stuff" do you mean, Kelly? [22:26] the 'do stuff' was covered in the Wheel of the Year program - so much so you get over the nervousness of the mountain to begin with [22:26] Ian would say, I think, that the DP is a bunch of stuff people can start doing right away [22:27] so I'm trying to understand where/what the mountain is [22:27] You have to sort out the "good info" from the "bad info". You have to come to grips with the order or ritual. You have to write your own rituals. You have to get into meditation. There are things to do but each step combines into a LOT of stuff. [22:27] I understood it where it was intimidating [22:27] * Aelcian tries to ketchup with the convo [22:28] Do you think it would be easier if there were a separate book which just had rituals and devotionals you could do right away, which was separate from the DP book? [22:28] I've been using the web site for that [22:28] Looking back, no single step was too much to do and the DP is a great thing. But I can say from experience it was a great deal of work and requires a large dose of motivation. Whereas, for grove members, you can ease into different pieces. [22:29] We learn a great deal by modeling behaviors and eavesdropping that is lost for solitaires. [22:30] Has the website been sufficient for that, Arial? [22:30] And even as a motivated solitaire, you go to the rituals site and the orders of ritual are a bit different, there are diverse formats and you ask "Are these the gods I want to honor for this rite?" and you can get shocked. [22:30] I am definitely enjoying exploring the site [22:30] shocked by what? [22:31] *** MattDucar (MattDucar@5b2377dd.biz.c7b28ff4.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [22:31] Just about where to start and what exactly fills the need you have. [22:31] However I feel like I am just getting started [22:31] I feel that before you can do a ritual well you need to learn about the gods that you will be involving in it - this is where I am having problems [22:31] MATT! [22:31] Hello! [22:31] My main questions have been about the cosmology, basically [22:31] why doesn't ADF put that part first? [22:31] (I'm doing that to everyone i recognize) [22:32] Aren't there some articles about the cosmology in the membership guide? [22:32] I found the articles and they were helpful [22:32] Trista, In my experience the gods are quite forgiving -- they're smart enough to know you're getting started and talk a bit louder ;) [22:32] I also found some good information on the web site, but it took me a while to find it [22:33] Doing ritual well is a process, don't think you need to do it right the first time [22:33] [Aelcian] Umm, louder may be a bit of an understatement on my part... lol [22:34] I DO think a revisit to the Sols email list is a primary solution to many of these concerns. [22:34] * ArthurShipkowski grabs his Membership Guide. [22:34] ok, thanks for your help [22:34] *** Trista (Trista@fbdfb1bd.dhcp.a3d59c23.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: Trista] [22:34] There's a bit in here, but not a whole lot. [22:34] Perhaps some of the old timers need to be more vocal. [22:34] Everything in there is on the website anyway... [22:34] don't forget about this page: http://www.adf.org/rituals/ [22:35] that is a good place to get started [22:35] * KellyP makes a note to speak on the email list. [22:35] * KellyP feels like he lives inside the rituals directory as of late. [22:36] lol [22:37] Sorry I came late -- is there a general topic (other than Sol stuff) or just free sol-related chat? [22:37] it's not free, you have to pay $29.99 [22:37] You could pray for the Sol to come thaw out Texas and Oklahoma so I can get home. [22:37] [Aelcian] Just whatever sol related.. we are currently on solitary resources [22:37] send it to my paypal [22:37] Oh man! I forgot my credit card :( [22:37] [Aelcian] doh! [22:38] [Aelcian] lose a turn and go back three spaces. [22:38] Guess I'll have to come back later [22:38] I think the issue may be organization of information. The Start Here is not always clear, and there are three slightly different versions of the Simple Devotional in the DP manual. I will admit that it seemed a monolith to me at first, but I decided that I was going to get my membership fee's worth. [22:38] we'll take you on credit [22:38] So do you think we need a flowchart of sorts? [22:39] Well, what is in all the popular Wiccan resources that everone loves? [22:40] I think the one benefit the popular Wiccan resources have is that you can find umpteen slightly different reiterations of the information -- which is useful because different people handle these things differently. [22:40] And I think we do suffer from a shortage of sol rituals. [22:40] *** RoseDrake (RoseDrake@ebed6f46.bflony.d75a346f.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [22:40] When you think of it, the sols are the ones that need the most help in starting their ritual practice. [22:40] [Aelcian] I would be interested in putting together an online course of sorts if someone with experience with the OOR and writing rituals would be willing to collab on that... [22:41] *** RoseDrake (RoseDrake@ebed6f46.bflony.d75a346f.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Client Quit] [22:41] *** RoseDrake (RoseDrake@ebed6f46.bflony.d75a346f.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [22:41] Sure, I can give you some thoughts if you like [22:41] [Aelcian] for writing rituals, that is [22:41] I'd be willing to help with that [22:41] I've been a sol by circumstance for the past few years and might enjoy actually writing up some of my work [22:42] Maybe someone could get a list of relevant questions about ritual writing and post it to the sols email list. Then synthesize the results into something for the website. [22:42] [Aelcian] That would be great.. Anthony, and Matt... [22:44] [Aelcian] I think putting together the course might actually help my understanding of the OOR myself.. [22:45] I do know that my failed attempt at a "writing a rite from scratch with the COoR" article gave me a great deal of enlightenment. [22:46] Arthur, is that an OL article? If so, has it been published yet or upcomming? [22:47] * KellyP envisions the solitaire rite generate ... Select your High Day from column A, your chosen deity from Column B [22:47] [Aelcian] Is the lag just killing us tonight, or is everyone winding down? [22:47] [Aelcian] That would be interesting to have.. a ritual generator... lol [22:48] There's a create your own Passover seder Wiki type device on the web which essentially is a ritual generator. It would be wonderful to have something like that for ADF format rituals. [22:48] That's the thing that bothers me most about the OOR -- that it is too easy to make very generic [22:48] Well, if we got enough examples of rituals, it would not be terribly difficult to do. But I think it would quickly become unsatisfying to most members. [22:48] I could dig up the URL if anyone wants to look at it. [22:48] Matt, it didn't come together. It was for OL. [22:49] Arthur, I understand -- I have several similar articles myself ;) [22:49] [Aelcian] Perhaps they will seed a finished article in the future... [22:49] [Aelcian] ;) [22:51] Ritual generator-wise, that's something I had on the back burner, if only because I tend to not want to program when I get home for the day. [22:52] I can relate to that Arthur. I burned some hours on the programming clock this last week and my fingers are tired. [22:52] It might quickly become unsatisfying, but it might also help many folks to get started those first few times [22:52] Here's a sol question -- I've done rituals in a grove around the birth of a child & welcoming that child in to the community. How have people approached that as a sol? [22:52] Seems like a lot of ADF projects are slow going because everyone working on them is tired at the end of their paying work day. [22:53] And/or take on too many at once. [22:53] I introduced my son to each of the Kindreds and made an oath to him before Them. [22:53] I haven't had the opportunity to consider that Matt [22:54] I did Nine Waves blessings in the bathtub [22:54] since i didn't have the option of taking my kids to a grove rit [22:54] I hadn't considered it myself until recently -- I have my first (a daughter) due in April! [22:54] Congratulations [22:54] Congratulations. [22:55] yay matt! [22:55] Yay! Babies are wonderful! [22:55] (I mean, mostly.)\ [22:55] Being a sol for the past few years has been fine for me -- but I want my daughter to have more a sense of community if possible [22:56] More people need to announce births and passings within the group so that those of us distant may offer prayers and congrats. [22:57] Once, I saw a birth announcement in Oak Leaves. It would be nice if that were standard operating procedure for all new ADF parents. [22:57] *** agent23 (secretmage@df58b36e.ph.ph.6ca6b017.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [22:57] hi [22:57] AVERY! [22:57] I'll make a note to announce it when she pops! [22:57] ADF-DISCUSS is always good for miscellany. :-) [22:57] sorry i should have been here earlier [22:58] (guessing) [22:58] You came at just the right time. [22:58] * Aelcian arches an eyebrow [22:58] I've put together a nice ritual to bless her room once I finish getting it ready. I can't wait to do it. [22:59] Well we need to get that posted on the ADF site! [22:59] So other ADFers can use it. [22:59] I'll have to tweak it a bit to make it work for ADF but I'll do that and get it sent in. [22:59] You can post stuff on the Wiki -- it has a learning curve, but it's small. [22:59] *** Endovelicon (Endovelico@6ca5ed17.6ca5f03e.200.155.imsk) has quit IRC [Quit: Endovelicon] [23:00] I agree. If you cant handle learning something new, send it to me and I'll put it in the WIKI and credit it to you. [23:01] (I didnt mean that in an insulting way...removing foot from mouth now) [23:01] The Wiki should be easy enough to learn (I'm a programmer by trade) but I've only done basic stuff with it. It will be a good reason to learn;) [23:01] More of that techno-geek group we have at ADF. [23:02] * Aelcian grins at the second mention of techno-geeks and looks around wondering who they are? lol [23:02] *** agent23 is now known as avery [23:02] We're the ones with Cat5e cables as the cinctures on our robes. [23:02] * ArthurShipkowski winks at Aelcian. [23:03] no, there are no geeks in ADF [23:04] None [23:04] i have tape on my glasses, no lie [23:04] Its a nice ritual though -- I ask all of the kindreds along with Brighid (our hearth goddess) and Lugh (my patron) to watch over my daughter and protect her. [23:04] Soon they will be asking for their deities to be recognized as an IE hearth culture. [23:04] i guess i shouldn't mention the proto-indo-european pole playing game i'm making [23:05] *** Unknown command: LAUGHS [23:05] * Aelcian laughs out loud... [23:05] Whoa. I will play test it! [23:05] What do you think about choosing a patron/matron for your kid? I kind of picked one accidentally for one of my kids and he really feels connected to her. [23:05] Or maybe She picked him. [23:05] I don't think its possible to pick one for them. [23:05] [Aelcian] I would think both could be valid senarios, Rose [23:06] [Aelcian] however.. lol [23:06] The answer may be yes, Rose. [23:06] You can ask a particular god to watch over them, but that god may just direct them to someone more suitable for the child. [23:06] I would agree, Matt, that its not possible, but another mom I know picked one for her kid, and the kid feels really connected to her. [23:06] [Aelcian] Agreed. [23:06] And I think this may have a basis in history, when parents would send their kids off to a priestesshood early on. [23:06] I think we get the deity we need. [23:07] And the daemons we deserve. [23:07] If you ask one of the gods to take an interest in your child & make offerings, there is a good chance the god will respond. Which may just lead to a connection early on. There is also a chance that relationship could grow or fade over time as the child grows. [23:08] My kid just awoke, speak of the daemon. Gotta run. Thanks for the chat. Twas nifty. [23:08] *** RoseDrake (RoseDrake@ebed6f46.bflony.d75a346f.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: RoseDrake] [23:09] * Aelcian notes the rocket boosters on Roses shoes for future reference.. lol [23:09] I'm glad that is still a few months off for me ;) [23:09] sleep while you can Matt [23:10] Amen to that. [23:10] Sleep is for the weak! Or at least the bored ;) [23:10] lol [23:10] You will soon have Dad's disease: The tendency to fall asleep immediately upon becoming reclined. [23:10] [Aelcian] A pray for colic not be an experience for you... [23:11] [Aelcian] I don't have... that..... *snore* [23:11] I figure having a kid will put my insomnia to good use ;) [23:11] My son is nearly 13 and I still wake up if he even rolls over in his bed heavily. [23:12] But back to a sol related question.... Has anyone else here started out with a grove and then became a sol? [23:13] jenp: how are you doing? [23:13] Nope. Started sol and remain so. [23:14] I've spent some time with a couple of groves but I've always been Sol, really. [23:16] so i just read aradia and that inspired me to do some diana rituals, jenni sent me something but does anyone know where i can get more or some ideas [23:16] For me its been an interesting transition -- its really taught me a lot about my self as I made the change. [23:18] What would you say you learn about yourself by being solitary? [23:18] *** KellyP (KellyP@14055a92.14055a74.12.37.imsk) has quit IRC [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] [23:19] *** KellyP (KellyP@14055a92.14055a74.12.37.imsk) has joined #adf [23:19] [Aelcian] I'll be AFK for a bit.. need to take a quick break.. and see if I can get that revolving door fixed.. lol [23:19] Some of it was about focusing on what was really important to me. Often I found myself doing things because the group needed me to do it as their priest -- but I really had to revisit everyting when it was just me. [23:19] Blast. I am actually staying at a hotel where you have to pay for internet connectivity and it expired a few moments ago. [23:22] *** KellyP (KellyP@14055a92.14055a74.12.37.imsk) has left #adf [23:23] It was really eye opening to see how much of my 'regular' practice was because I was serving the community and not motivate from within myself. It disturbed me quite a bit. [23:23] That's interesting. From being solitary for a long time, I find I am very clear on what I like, but there are some gaps in what I do because I'm not with a group. [23:24] goodnight folks! [23:24] good night! [23:25] *** JenP (JenP@7ff79491.c3-0.rdl-ubr3.trpr-rdl.pa.cable.6ca6e6e8.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com] [23:25] I wouldn't say there are "gaps" in what I do now. I feel I've developed a complete practice for myself without those parts that I don't need. [23:26] Interesting, Matt. [23:26] Part of what I do (hold open rites) I do because of my desire for community. [23:26] At the same time, I sometimes wonder how things would change if I did it solely for myself. [23:27] (For those of you who weren't here at the start: there are no local ADF members.) [23:27] I found doing solitary work gave a a free hand to experiment more. Some of it didn't work well at all. Others of it have and I've stuck wit hit. [23:27] I didn't mean to imply that other people would have gaps in their practice :-) [23:28] Arial -- didn't take it that way ;) [23:28] ty [23:30] Over the last few years I've developed a practice that works for me. Isn't 100% "ADF" but is really close and does what I need. [23:30] Hmm. Ironically, it has proven difficult over the timeframe I've done open rites during to get people together during Beltane (it's finals time). So last year I did a solitary Walpurgisnacht...and it came out wonderful. [23:33] That's what is most important -- taking the time to spend time with the Kindreds and do the work they call you to do. [23:35] What I mean by things being missing is that I tend to be very unstructured when it comes to ritual. [23:36] If I were in a grove with other people, the structure would be easier to develop, I think. [23:37] When you're by yourself, being unstructured isn't bad by definition. What I suggest is reflecting on your ritual afterward and noting what was different from ADF's OOR. Pick one point and consider how it would have been different if you had incorporated it. Maybe try it that way next time & note what 'felt' different about it. [23:37] I like that suggestion. [23:38] [Aelcian] Okay folks, it's 11:37 here in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, so I need to get some rest before I go back on watch at 6... (Darn Navy ships) I'm leaving myself logged in so the logs will be complete... [23:38] What happens is that, ah, my patron steps in and asks me to do things that are not in the ritual as planned. Happens all the time. [23:39] In general, I'd say do what the gods indicate is needed -- unless it involves a high powered rifle and a clock tower ;) [23:39] That's what I've been doing. Without the rifle, that is. LOL. [23:39] Bye Aelcian [23:39] [Aelcian] Goodnight, and blessings all.. [23:40] Based on that technique, I've made some minor but important changes from ADF's OOR for my personal work that I stick with as regular practice now [23:43] That said, it is striking a delicate balance -- between doing what feels right for personal practice and keeping the connection to the "group" that is also very important for our owrk. [23:45] Has anyone else had the experience of being solitary and getting out of the habit of discussing their spiritual activities with others? [23:50] quit [23:51] *** Beth (bsavage@7665e490.bflony.d75a346f.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [] [23:53] signing off... nite folks [23:53] Nite. [23:53] *** Soteira (furyofAna@5a1745e8.va.mvl.ecaa8926.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [] [23:53] Arial -- yes I have. Part of it is I don't want to bore largely uninterested people with things. [23:53] Oh, yeah. [23:54] And it is kind of like speaking a different language. [23:58] Do you mean discussing it with other ADFers or just with others in general? [23:58] It is! Not to mention that since, obviously, there are no local ADF members, the frame isn't there. [23:59] Beej -- I personally meant others in general, though I do know I'm occasionally reluctant to share with ADFers as well. It feels...slightly trivializing, or, oppositely, braggart, to go into things in depth. [00:00] GOt to sign off... chat later. [00:01] What brought it to mind was that I made a casual comment about a patron just a minute ago, and that would be a completely foreign term to most people I know. [00:01] *** MattDucar (MattDucar@5b2377dd.biz.c7b28ff4.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: MattDucar] [00:02] Basically, even mentioning things like this on a general level - I just don't do. [00:02] Indeed. [00:03] But, if we can't discuss it here among others of the same path, where can you discuss it? [00:04] I don't have a patron(ness) in the usual sense, but I still understand when one mentions one, and I can listen to thoughts and feaalings, making useful comments along the way [00:04] feeelings, even [00:05] I meant with people who aren't familiar with ADF, that is. [00:05] I mean, my partner listens to me babble on about this and that and he hasn't the foggiest clue what I'm saying... but he listens and makes comments from time to time when somethign clicks for him [00:06] Hmm. My wife does listen to a heckuva lot. She also reviews my rites and points out all the places where I turned my brain off while writing it. [00:06] Well, sure, the guy down the street, or the girl in your office might not be the best place to mention that you're patronned to say, Dionysus. [00:06] LOL. [00:06] * ArthurShipkowski chuckles. [00:07] I can discuss spirituality on a very general level with a small number of people. [00:07] I usually say that "my intuition" told me X, Y or Z. [00:07] But, among other ADF solitaries is where I would expect the deeper discussion to happen that usually happen during grove meetings [00:08] I think part of it is still feeling mildly intimidated -- and self doubt. Another part is that such experiences have, on occasion, gotten personal in ways that add to the overall discomfort. [00:09] Well, I suppose if you encountered a deity that suggested you might want to leave your significant other for someone else, I can see where you might not want to share details of the message with anyone. [00:09] Heh. Not that, thankfully. [00:09] But, on the other hand, it would help those newer than yourself if we discussed the general experiences just the same [00:10] What did so-n-so look like when you encountered them? Was it during a medication, a dream, while standing in the middle of an aisle at the supermarket? [00:10] er, meditation [00:10] That's interesting. [00:10] It opens doors for us to legitimize our experiences simply by sharing them.. because we each have had something like them at some point [00:10] I often wonder about the value of sharing experiences w/others. [00:11] That's a really good point, Beej. [00:11] then they seem less like random, maybe someone will laugh if I mention it events and more like the events that they are [00:11] Heh. [00:12] I should go to bed -- I'm getting a little silly and have a new co-op coming in tomorrow, err, this morning. [00:12] Much as I'd love to continue this train of thought. [00:12] When I visit groves, peopel talk about all sorts of things from the car drive over to their kids to soup recipes to religious experiences.... [00:12] Ah, sorry Arthur... have a great week [00:13] Have a good week :-) [00:13] No problem, I'm glad I stuck around, though my attention varied -- you all have a great week. [00:13] That seems like it would be a fun aspect of being in a grove [00:13] *** ArthurShipkowski (ArthurShi@71f1ce44.altnpa.east.36f5c1fe.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: ArthurShipkowski] [00:13] *** ArthurShipkowski (ArthurShi@71f1ce44.altnpa.east.36f5c1fe.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [00:13] It can certainly be interesting... and it's definitely one of the things we miss out on as sols [00:13] Whoops, wrong button. [00:14] *** ArthurShipkowski (ArthurShi@71f1ce44.altnpa.east.36f5c1fe.net.hmsk) has left #adf [00:14] *** avery (secretmage@df58b36e.ph.ph.6ca6b017.net.hmsk) has left #adf [00:14] G'night [00:15] I've also considered discussing more w/my partner but tend not to. [00:15] I mean, where else I can discuss the links between deities and experiences if not with folks of, if not the same expereinces, then at least like minds [00:15] I get a lot of rolled eyes from my partner, personally [00:15] But mostly in that, oh, boy, he's thinking again, sort of way [00:16] Well, my partner isn't pagan but can tell I am "making good vibes in the house" after a ritual [00:16] I just don't discuss the process, LOL [00:17] *chuckle* [00:17] And, yes, I am indeed alive. [00:17] Well it's a start... at least you're not getting negative feedback [00:18] Yeah... I think it would be hard to be in a LTR w/someone who was opposed to spiritual practice. [00:18] I've heard of it happening... and it can definitely cause strain. Not my thing at all. [00:19] I'm fortunate to be around mostly open-minded people, even if they don't know any specifics. [00:20] M Good way to handle it. [00:20] Then, if I happen to start blathering on about specifics, they can jsut tune me out without being surprised about what I say [00:21] Now, if it didn't take me a couple of hours to write a single ADF email post, I might actually start a conversation.. or at least present the convoluted connection between my current partner and one of the Greek gods [00:22] That sounds interesting [00:22] And, someone might actually read and comment on it. [00:22] Interesting. [00:23] And would make for a good discussion I am sure :-) [00:23] Well, it'd make for some raised eyebrows at the very least... it's not one of the more favored gods, ADF-wise [00:24] Now I am curious. [00:25] It all starts with Looney Tunes, and nicknames, and dreams... and goes from there... [00:25] I think a lot of people may be having very interesting experiences that just aren't being discussed... [00:25] That intimidation factor again. [00:26] I guess with a list someone has to kick off the conversation. [00:26] Yea. [00:26] Always remember Warnock's too. [00:26] Who? [00:26] And for those that haven't been enlightened about Warnock's Delimma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock%27s_Dilemma [00:27] 5 reasons discussions go no where. [00:28] well, that hits the nail on the head. [00:28] Hmm... [00:29] Now I feel inspired to be more outspoken. [00:30] Personally... I never talk about spirituality... It's kind of taken a back seat in my life for some time. [00:30] It's nothing I'm too concern with.. Yet, I am here. A delimma in itself. [00:30] ell, that's a start, isn't it? [00:31] Yep. [00:31] All journeys must have a "Journey begins here" point somewhere along the line. [00:31] Otherwise it isn't a journey. [00:31] Sure. [00:32] Or at least, a backwards facing sign that says "You're already on the road, and this is where it began." [00:32] Haha [00:32] LOL [00:32] "Do not enter - Wrong way" ? [00:32] lol [00:32] Or, of course, "Yield." [00:32] Naw, I'd end up taking that one as a challenge or somethign [00:33] Well, sometimes one's, ah, path shows up repeatedly. [00:33] And that reminds me of a poem. :) [00:34] For example, I have been getting pointed reminders to practice a certain martial art for two years now. [00:34] Hah [00:34] But? [00:35] I keep putting it off. [00:35] Oh. [00:35] Sounds like my religion problems. [00:35] Just inertia, or are otehr thigns blocking you? [00:35] "I'll try this" ... Then I get busy with something else, I forget about it ... A year later it pops back up again. [00:36] My problem is with parents... I'm living with them. I'm not certain how they'd react. [00:36] Sounds like the book I'm writing. [00:36] I am getting over a very difficult graduate program/career change, and don't feel ready yet. [00:36] And all the rituals I've seen require not so common stuff. [00:37] For ADF? [00:37] Have you read the essay _Three bowls and a Stick?_ [00:37] No. [00:37] That's a good one. [00:37] I haven't. [00:37] Sounds comedic though [00:38] It's how to do a ritual with the absolute minimum... for those with limited space, finiances, or other reasons that you might not be able to have lots of 'stuff' [00:38] Yea [00:38] I'm in a bit of a space crunch right now too. [00:38] i believe he had a portable altar [00:39] A table, desktop, bed top for that matter [00:39] Not difficult to find. [00:39] Any flat surface can be an altar if you want it to be [00:40] It doesn't even have to be something that's /always/ used as an altar. [00:40] Perhaps the bottom level that's currently being used to store misc papers. [00:40] But, really, take a look at that article.. it's worth it. [00:40] Yea [00:41] It makes even Ian's video seem fancy, and it's very basic in itself. [00:41] I guess it goes back to the intimidation factor discussed early. [00:41] Well, i can understand that. [00:41] I'm a newbie... I have no clue of what I'm doing besides what I've found on the internet. [00:41] But, it never hurts for me to give a good word to encourage someone to take a step they want to anyhow. [00:42] The "Stranger in a strange land" phenomena... Totally lost, don't know where I'm headed... [00:42] Nods. [00:43] But, sometimes, to grok the experience you have to have it first. Otherwise words fail, as does the full definition of grok itself. [00:43] Yea [00:43] And I guess there is the fear of failure too. [00:44] Ah. [00:44] What if I mess up? [00:44] I should probably go to sleep soon... good talking with you all. [00:44] Well... hmm... that's why it takes so long for me to write emails... so I here ya there. [00:44] G'night Arial. taht martial arts thing will be waiting when you're ready for it. [00:44] thanks :-) [00:44] Will I offend some higher power? Will I destory something that I don't even know about? [00:44] Good night. [00:44] Good night :-) [00:45] *** Arial (Arial@a6ddf382.dsl.mdsnwi.3e6fd2e2.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: Arial] [00:45] Well, from my own expereince and from those in ADF who've goen before me, we've found that the gods are usually very forgiving to beginners. [00:45] Good. [00:46] We're not generally magic oriented, so there's not much to destroy in inviting the kindred for a brief visit so you can share gifts. [00:46] Yea [00:47] That's good... No real "Woops, this thing went the exact opposite way I wanted it to... Now I've got a problem." opportunities then. [00:47] And, if you look at it like that... a short visit.. "Hey, how are ya? I got this for you. Oh, wow, thanks for giving me something, too. Well, take care." then it's nto quite so intimidating. [00:47] Yea. True. :) [00:48] Mostly, htat's what our rituals are like... group rituals being much fancier and longer winded, but they still rather boil down to that. [00:49] Nah, following the Order of rituial, you're not going to have a real oops, besides maybe.. "oops, I did this out of order... is that okay with you? [00:49] Yea [00:49] *** AnthonyRThompson (jircii@d53815aa.ri.ri.6ca6b017.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: AnthonyRThompson has no reason] [00:50] But the question is... [00:50] If I call the gods/kindred/ancestors... How do they pick up the metaphorical phone and respond? [00:52] And, yes, I have a lot of questions like this. [00:52] Well, according to lore... they're usually listening. [00:52] hang on a sec... [00:54] Sorry... got interrupted [00:54] No problem. [00:54] Nothign wrong with questions, can't learn without them [00:54] yep. [00:55] So.. according to lore, there are pacts as old as time between the kindreds and teh People... pacts that have to do with old laws of hospitality... [00:56] Sort of a guest-host relationship of sorts. [00:56] You can't refuse an invitation... you can't refuse a gift, and you must return a gift for a gift... [00:56] Yup. [00:57] Ancient greece had that a bunch. If I remember right, mythology said it was handled by Zeus (who, among other things, had dominion over the sky). [00:57] So, by beginning a ritual, we begin that process... we put out an invitation. [00:57] I think so... I know the Old Mother had that job among the Slavic peoples [00:58] Yea. Used to be The Myth Guy in a high school Latin club. [00:58] You got a start then... [00:59] Well. That's good. [00:59] So, we put out the invites... Hey shinign ones, come visit... Hey nature spirits come closer... hey ancestors, come visit. [01:00] Then we name a special guest of honor among all those we've invited. Hey Athena, this special place is just for you today. [01:00] Ah. [01:00] Not that the rest aren't special, too.. just that, today, she's getting the biggest present. Next time it might be someone else. [01:01] Kind of like "Today's special guest star" of sorts. [01:01] Right. [01:02] So she gets her special spot... and then you start distributing the gifts... things that seem simple but mean something to them who are different and much older than us... [01:02] Ah. [01:03] like oil to feed the flames... and grains to feed the ground around us... and whiskey or other alcohols (some of the gods are very fond of drink)... [01:03] So... They're interested in other stuff than cash or a gift card to Restaurant X. [01:03] That makes sense. [01:03] whatever seems right based on the stories we have about those we've invited. If you're unsure... grain like oatmeal, and plain old olive oil are perfect standbys [01:04] Good. :) [01:04] I can deal with that. Except maybe olive oil. [01:04] Well, yeah... because there's not much for them to buy... [01:04] True. :) [01:04] Vegetable oil works too [01:04] Got walnut oil. [01:04] Probably would work. [01:05] We do give some of them silver... toss it in the well for the ancestors who still remember the days when silver was important to them... [01:05] that'd definitnely work. [01:06] Umm, some coins still contain a small amount of silver... or, for like 3-5 bucks you can get a pair of silver earrings at walmart [01:06] Yea. [01:06] Last time I did a ritual, we'd found a small sterling chain broken and thrown away... not so good for me to use, but perfect for its silver content for the ancestors to have. [01:07] So... you give out all the presents, remembering that the guest of honor gets the bigger portion, the best stuff.. kinda like it's their birthday. [01:08] It's an Oprah show. "Everyone gets a free magazine. And we have a special treat for our show's special guest today." *chuckle* [01:08] Then you wait a few mintues... it's a visit afterall, it's always good to be sociable. Be quiet.. listen, meditate, or just look around you at all that's there that might be just beyond your eyes to see the rest of the time. [01:09] Then, when you feel like you've been a good host gently remind them of their pact, and ask that you receive their blessing. [01:09] Ah. [01:10] Heh, yeah, kinda like an Oprah thing, only without all those damned hot lights poitning at you. [01:10] LOL [01:10] Now, mind you... a blessing was once a pretty big deal. Folks wouldn't part their family without one for fear of the bad things that might befall them... [01:11] Yea [01:11] In this day, we barely even think about blessings unless it's on a TV show depicting the old days. [01:11] Unless it's a person blessing another person's decision [01:11] So, when we ask for a blessing in return for our gifts, we're really asking for something special and nice [01:12] Well, yeah, but even that doesn't happen too often anymore. [01:12] True. [01:12] So.... We're talking a big blessing... Not a small one. [01:13] So, we hold up a bowl or cup with a beverage in it... water, whiskey, mead, ale... what have you... and ask to receive teh blessing from your guests. [01:13] Yeah, a big one... [01:14] But, sometimes we really aren't sure what that blessing gift is until later when we've had time to study what we got. Kinda like that big "What-the-hell-is-that" you got from Aunt Martha one year... turned out to be pretty cool, but it sure took a while to figure out what it was [01:15] LOL [01:15] I know the feeling. [01:15] So, you hold up your beverage, and wait for the blessing... then take a sip.. or a big drink (some folks pour out a bit first to share even the blessing you've received with your guests)... [01:16] Then, it's time to send everyone home. [01:17] Now, it's not like they aren't around.. maybe they're neighbors, or perhaps distant visitors... but you sure don't want em hanging around forever.. they've got thigns to do and so do you... [01:17] But, you want to make sure you know you like em and will likely invite em back again... [01:17] so, as you're saying your goodbyes, you give one last gift each,,, this time making sure they know that you don't expect anything in return for this one... [01:18] Kind of a "Thank you. Come again" type gift. [01:18] First, say good bye to the special guest (last in, first out)... then each of the other guests [01:18] Exactly. [01:18] Then it's clean up time. [01:20] Put whatever oil wasn't prepared for the ritual away for next time... take the water and either put it someplace where it won't spill, or take it outside and dump it into the ground at the base of a tree. [01:20] Anything that was used as an offering should be left outside. Stuff like silver can be set aside for a tiem when you can access an actual well, river or other natural water source. [01:21] And you're done... time to call it a night. [01:21] Mind you.. there's lots more you can do during a ritual, like take an omen to get an idea what the blessing was. [01:21] Ah. [01:21] But that's the basics. [01:22] But the very basics come down to a visit, somethign of a little formal party for you and your friends. [01:22] See... When it's broken down like that.. It's easy to understand. [01:22] Maybe someone should write a "Druidry in a Modern Context" type article... Might be good for newbies. [01:22] Well, I belief the leadership is currently looking for ways to simplify things so new folks who've never done this sort of thing before can get a better handle on it. [01:23] Good. [01:23] It needs to be done. [01:23] The last time I tried this little Merry-Go-Round I was left confused and in the dark. [01:23] It does. Once upon a time, most of our members came to us from other pagan groups.. wicca or what have you... so they had some idea what was what. [01:24] Some of the articles had a ton of confusing jargon.. Kind of like Average Joe reading a Unix System Administrator guide. [01:24] LOL. Exactly. [01:24] Aelcian will look at the log of this chat later and pass on comments like that. It'll help to get better info out there [01:25] It makes perfect sense if you're a techie and know what a "kernel" is... But Average Joe reads "kernel" and thinks "pop corn?" [01:25] rofl [01:25] Yup. [01:26] Oh. [01:26] Same thing here. Lots of words that only apply to pagans, and us. It's hard a lot of times to take those words away and get down to the nuts and bolts underneath... [01:26] And a little humor never hurt anyone... Especially in newcomer guides. [01:26] especially when you've been doing this sort of thing for years. [01:26] Very true. I was about to say before... [01:26] Yep. It's sort of like the SCA subculture I'm involved with. [01:27] Officially... Normal people are normal people... But still many go back to the old "mundanes" label. [01:27] My explanation sounded very umm... irreverent, but that wasn't the intention... more it was to make sure that you got the gist of what was going on without worrying about trappings [01:27] They officially got rid of the term mun? Huh. [01:28] It's in the official "guide for dealing with the press". [01:28] Ah. Probably a good idea there.. wouldn't want folks to think they were being ridiculed by the use of unknown words. [01:28] The main corporate office is worried about bad publicity... So they're trying to weed out jargon words that could be misconstrued. [01:30] I think here, the jargon gives a feeling of specialness... an us and them feel... but it also makes new folks feel like outsiders. [01:30] Yea [01:30] Perhaps a miniglossary of sorts. [01:30] Like the Jargon File or the EverQuest Glossary. [01:31] That's been talked about lately, too. I think it should be somethign online myself, where it can grow to encompass terms as they appear [01:31] Like a Wikipedia of sorts. [01:31] I like Wikipedia. [01:31] Five years ago, we didn't have the term godden... now we do... no one else does. Somethign permanent like a book wouldn't be able to adjust for that very easily. [01:31] Yea [01:32] Some times terms appear.. Some times they stay the same... And sometimes they just disappear. [01:33] So, anyways... Feb first is coming.... the next offically recognized High Day. Think... Groundhog Day. Read that article, grab a couple of bowls from the kitchen (or papercups even), find yourself a stick... and invite some really special folsk for a visit. [01:34] You might be pleasantly surprised with the experience. And don't worry. No one expects your very first party to be the best one ever. [01:34] Good. [01:34] http://www.adf.org/members/training/dp/articles/3-bowls.html [01:34] Feb First... Humm [01:35] There abouts, yep. [01:35] Ah yes. I remember. [01:35] A day roughly half way between Winter Solstice and Spring Equinox. [01:36] Yup.. almost spring, but not quite.. could be a mild, could be awful [01:37] Yea [01:37] Can't remember the old name I used for it. [01:37] If you deal with the Greeks, I believe A talk with Persephone and Hades wouldn't be too unusual... since [01:37] Since she's with him right now... and spring can't come until she leaves [01:38] Yea. [01:38] That's it. [01:38] Imbolic happens right around February 1st. [01:38] Course, you could just invite some of Punxatawney Phil's relatives to visit, too. [01:39] Haha. [01:39] True. [01:39] That's one of the names for, I believe, yes. [01:40] Yep [01:40] Have you chosen a hearth culture yet, or are you kinda swimming at sea? [01:40] Swimming. [01:40] Big time. [01:41] Which myths/stories have you read so far? [01:41] Mostly greek stuff. [01:41] A few norse stuff. [01:42] Well, we certainly have tons of stuff from the greeks to pull from... I'm not personally as informed on the norse... just some generic knowledge. [01:42] Yea. Same here. [01:43] Tryed researching Celtic. [01:43] Well, like i said, there's Persephone and Hades...as well as Persephone's mother (name slips my mind right now)... definitely pre-spring motif there... [01:43] Couldn't find any solid sources on it online. [01:43] Demeter. [01:43] If I remember right. [01:44] Try this for Celtic stuff... http://celt.ucc.ie/index.html [01:45] It's got jsut about everything we know about well... Irish Cletic myth/legend [01:45] Ah, yeah, Demeter.. thanks. I'm real bad with names [01:45] Oh wow. [01:45] That's nice. [01:46] I really like that one, and it's usually mentioned on the lists from time to time. [01:46] I suppose you could also go with Artemis as guardian of the forests and the hunt... since this is a time of food scarcity. [01:47] Thanks for the resource. [01:47] Or, at the least, higher prices for the good food, for those of us who don't hunt anymore. [01:47] Yea. [01:47] No problem. [01:47] So. [01:47] Fear point number... I lost count... Switching hearth cultures... Possible? [01:49] Yup, definitnely! [01:49] Good. [01:49] That takes a lot of the apprehension out of it. [01:49] You can even address more than one. Many groves I've visited address different pantheons at different times of the year. [01:50] Didn't want to start doing Greek.. Find something in another culture that was more attractive... But be stuck. [01:50] Personally, I address three different... Irish, Greek and Slavic. [01:50] Ah. [01:50] Nah, it's okay. [01:50] So mix and match is ok. [01:50] The big thing is... it's generally condiered not a good idea to ivite folks from different cultures at the same time. [01:51] You could haver a great time and everyone gets along, or you could have less than perfect results, ornone at all because the invitees are too busy arguign with each other. [01:51] Oh [01:52] Like, the Greek and Romans would likely get along jsut fine.... may even be the same peronsage in some cases. [01:52] Ye0p [01:52] The Norse and the Romans might not be so amenable. [01:53] I've never heard of an actual disaster from bringing different cultures in... so this isn't a hard rule. [01:53] Ah [01:53] Likely, the worst that can happen is nothign at all. Your water/ blessed beverage bestows nothing on you. [01:53] So, don't stress too much about it. [01:54] Best idea is to pick a story or two that you like... they don't even have to be about hte time of year you're celebrating directly. [01:54] Read em a couple of times until you [01:54] ve got a good idea what's going on in em. [01:54] Ok [01:54] So how long do these rituals actually take? [01:55] Eh... a personal ritual.. half hour maybe... perhaps less. A full grove ritual with all the flowery words and pomp and stuff... I've been to ones that took four hours (ugh!) [01:56] Ah. Wow [01:57] Feature length movie [01:57] Usually a grove ritual runs about an hour and a half. [01:57] Yeah.. pretty much. [01:58] Anyways, pick a story you like, get an idea of what kind of personality the gods in it have... then think about if you'd like to invite them for a visit. [01:58] Ah. [01:58] Kind of a "meet the characters behind the story" type thing. :) [01:58] Hey, if you hit it off, you can invite them back. If not, not harm done. Start looking into other stories and gods who might be more compatible. [02:00] Sort of, yeah. I mean... those stories were told for just that reason upon a time. To give folks a way to better know those who were looking after them. [02:00] And I guess if things go well... I'll know. [02:00] You'll have a feeling, yeah. Might be more concrete than that, might not. But, you'll kinda know if you enjoyed your time with your guests. [02:01] Kinda like moving into a new neighborhood and throwing a barbeque. [02:01] Those folks down the street seemed like cool people to get to know... after meeting em, you'll know if you want to continue hanging out with em or not. [02:01] Yea [02:01] Good. [02:02] The good news is... there are lots of neighbors to choose from and no set amount of time to find the ones you want to hang iwth. [02:03] Good. :) [02:04] I hope I gave you some ideas... made you a little more comfortable with it all. The gods know, it's a lot to graps all at once. [02:04] grasp. Save teh grapes for later. =o] [02:05] Yea [02:05] Well.. It's been informative. [02:05] I've got a better idea of what's going on at least. [02:06] Question.. What are devotionals and how do they differ from rituals? [02:06] That's a good start then. I'm sure you'll have tons more questinos. [02:06] Devotionals are kinda like... erm.. just prayers. Like saying grace before eating a meal. [02:06] Ah. [02:06] They may or may not be directed at a particular deity. [02:07] Good idea to do them or not? [02:07] If a ritual is a party, then devitionals are like phone calls. [02:07] Always good to stay in touch with your friends... you know? [02:07] You don't have to start off doing them... especially if you don't know who you're calling yet. [02:07] Yea. [02:08] Ah. [02:08] Any good resources for those? [02:08] At teh same time, it never hurts to give a shout out to whoever might be listening, kinda like calling into one of those dedications on the radio... [02:09] Yep [02:09] I believe there are... a couple of ADFers have even published books of em. But, I don't know where to get them right off. [02:09] If you'd like, I could investigate and get back to you on it? [02:10] Me, I don't even call my parents but maybe once a month.... so.... call me a bad druid but I don't personally do them. [02:10] Sure. [02:10] Hey. [02:10] Grin [02:10] Sometimes the time isn't there. [02:11] Nah. I'm just lazy that way. Too wrapped up in myself and all that. Heh. [02:12] Ah [02:12] But I know folks who swear by them... so they must be good for keeping closer to your new friends. [02:12] Well. That works too. [02:12] Are you on the Solitaries list? [02:13] Nope [02:13] Not on any real list. I just got back into the swing of this tonight. [02:13] Read a notice on it ... Went "Interesting" and showed up. [02:15] Ah. Hmm... I would say, at least get on the solitaries and, even if you're not working on it right this instant, the Dedicant's list [02:16] the first because that's where those of us without grovess can discuss things that grovies would that we can't ... the second because all those questions you might think are too stupid to be asked... are being asked and answered. [02:16] If nothing else, there's always discussion that you can learn from there. [02:18] Lists not found. [02:20] Umm... [02:20] You're in the members only section, right? I mean, I'm assuming you're a member. [02:20] Nope. Joe Public Section. Haven't been a member for the last 4 years, so no. [02:21] Ah... that kinda makes things a bit more difficult. Teach me to assume, huh? heh. [02:22] Well, then... start with the ADF-Druidry list. It's a bit more generic and has plenty of non-members on it in additino to the member base... but it's a decent place to start. [02:22] Ah [02:23] Be warned that we sometiems have folks from other orgs show up to ask quesitons about us there, so it's not all our way of doing things that's being discussed... but, that said, it's a good resource to start. [02:23] Ah [02:24] Still, that doesn't mean anything else I told you about is any different. No one ever said you had to be a member in order to do a ritual, or even attend one. [02:24] Good. [02:25] Who knows. If you have a good experience with the super simple version I told you about.. maybe you'll be tempted to visit us again, too. =o] [02:26] Yea [02:26] For devotinoal prayers, you might be able to find this at the library... http://www.amazon.com/Book-Pagan-Prayer-Ceisiwr-Serith/dp/1578632552/sr=8-1/qid=1168845981/ref=sr_1_1/104-8513356-6104703?ie=UTF8&s=books [02:28] He's one of our folks who does lots of research and stuff. If the link doesn't work, try typing "Ceisiwr Serith's A Book of Pagan Prayer" in Amazon.com's search bar. [02:29] Ah [02:29] Well. [02:29] Local library has one copy.. Due back the 26th. [02:30] Searching the region. :) [02:30] At least it's available to look at. And no obligation to buy if you don't think it's useful for you. [02:31] Yea [02:33] Yep. One copy in the entire metropolitan area. [02:33] Plus about a dozen academic libraries spread across the state. [02:34] But.. I'll look around for it. [02:35] Eh. Considering the obscure nature of the book... being a thing for pagans, I can sometimes be surprised that a library has it at all. [02:37] Yes. [02:38] Well... The area I'm in has a bit of a pagan population from what I can tell. [02:38] About 4 miles away is a small pagan shop... Went there once for a theatrical troupe. [02:40] *** DockHolliday (shusaikiri@5ad4d87c.mia.828b38f5.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [02:40] Hello [02:40] *** DockHolliday is now known as DocHolliday [02:40] Hi [02:40] How's it going? [02:41] Trying to figure out the little thing known as ADF. [02:42] Sounds fun. I sent in my membership form and fee on friday. [02:42] * DocHolliday alliterates [02:44] I'm not to that phase yet. [02:45] The membership phase? [02:45] May have to pay the local pagan store a visit. [02:45] Ah [02:45] Yea [02:45] Have you read any ofthe recommended books yet? [02:45] I'm in the "Hi. I have no clue what's going on here. Send help." [02:45] Recommended books? [02:45] Yeah, there's a list of recommend books to read on the website [02:45] I've got like one book on paganism. [02:45] hold on [02:45] Probably not on the list. [02:46] Sorry, doing some work related paperwork that I needed to get done this weekend. [02:46] http://www.adf.org/training/resources/reading.html [02:46] I started reading A History of Pagan Europe [02:46] There are a couple of books listed on the public side of ADF's website... [02:47] I've checked out three of those from the library, but I've only started that one. [02:47] Humm. Did Illiad and Odyssey. Guess that's a start. [02:48] Always a good place to start if you're reading about the Greeks. [02:51] There's a protogrove sort of near where I live, and I emailed the given address, but I've not gotten a response yet =/ [02:52] Bleh. [02:52] Last time I checked. [02:52] Where? [02:52] There was no one within 150 miles of where I'm at. [02:52] Beej: The one in Boynton Beach, Florida [02:53] St. Louis, MO [02:55] Refresh my memory.. how far is that from Bloomington IL? [02:55] I remember driving down there, but no clue on drive times. [02:55] Um [02:55] About 3 hours to Bloomington [02:55] If I remember right [02:56] yup, Google Maps says 2 hours 41 minutes [02:56] Hmm.. still about 150 miles then, huh? [02:56] Yep [02:57] I know someone was on here ealier tonight who mentioned there were --er, or maybe it was a email message-- in the Bloomington Normal area [02:57] I drive about 2.5 hrs to go to the closest grove to me, so know about drives... (I'm in NY right now) [02:58] I just thought it might help if I could put someone in touch with you who was relatively close. that's not exactly close. [02:58] Yea [02:58] 90 miles is about my limit for "close" [02:58] Yeah [02:59] Doc, I'll post a message tomorrow to see if anyone from the FL grove is still active. [02:59] Ok, thanks. [03:01] There are some folks in Champaign, but that's even farthur away. [03:02] Yea [03:02] If I remember right [03:02] There were some in Kansas City too. [03:02] But that's pretty far. [03:03] Yeah, I was about to look to see where these MO folks were. [03:03] There's one in Shawnee Mission, KS [03:03] and one in Carthage, MO [03:04] and carthage is 270 miles [03:04] Joplin [03:04] the one in Kansas is only 140 miles [03:04] er... [03:04] wait [03:05] And that's impossible. [03:05] yeah [03:05] It's at least 200 miles to the border. [03:05] I substituted it in for the wrong thing and wasn't thinking about it [03:05] it's 263 miles [03:05] There's someone in Flourissant [03:05] It's 140 miles from Carthage to Shawnee Mission [03:06] Humm. [03:06] Interesting. [03:06] It's a start. [03:06] Whcih looks like it's just the other side of St. Louis... [03:06] Yep [03:07] I go about 5 miles from that area almost every day,. [03:07] Well, it's only one person, but it's a start.. and they're listed on the public side of the list, so there's no problem with you having the email address. [03:08] Ah. Cool. [03:08] Goes by TalaRaven... email is spikesgrrl1@yahoo.com [03:08] Sounds like a 14 to 16 year old girl. [03:08] There may be others in the area, but some folks mark their city as confidential so it's hard to say [03:09] Yea [03:09] Eh.. you never know... might be some girl who was into the spice girls a couple of years back or something... [03:09] I was thinking that she's into anime. [03:10] Could be that, too. You just never know what folks were thinking of when they chose their email address. [03:10] So does it usually really take 4 to 6 weeks to process memberships or is that just the estimate to be on the safe side? [03:10] yea [03:10] But, it certainly can't hurt to fire off an email.. you never know, you might meet a new friend. [03:11] I'm honestly not sure. If you're dealing solely with snail mail, then you're at the mercy of the post... I usually just renew with pay-pal so it's pretty quick. And [03:11] .. then I forget how long it's been until the new membership card comes in the mail. [03:11] Well, I would have used paypal, but I can't. I had to get that darn waiver signed, too. [03:12] Ah. [03:12] Ah yes. Wavers. [03:12] It was annoying, but I definitely understand why it's required. [03:12] The only thing the internet doesn't work for. [03:12] Probably it's to be on the safe side. I believe the office worker only works a couple of days a week for us... [03:12] So, they don't want you expecting an instant turn around. [03:13] Makes sense. [03:13] But, if you gave them an email address on your papaerwork, you'll probably hear from them once they receive everything, even before you get your package back in the mail. [03:13] I will stress probably as I don't deal with that side of things. [03:14] Sounds good [03:15] Anyways, it's very late here on teh east coast and I have to get up early to wait for Verizon to visit... so I should probably be getting out of here. [03:15] So long. Sleep well. Thanks for your help. [03:15] valen... if you want to give me a shout with other questions, I'd be happy to answer when I can... dreamer@dreamersparadise.com [03:16] Ok [03:16] Well. Thanks for the assistance. [03:16] It's a ton of information to digest. [03:16] But... Hey.. Maybe some good will come of it. [03:16] Doc, if you give me your addy, I'll try to get someone to contact you in FL if I can. [03:16] k, my email is Jesufication@gmail.com [03:16] Yeah, it's a lot. Little bites is the way to go. [03:17] interesting address.. I got it noted. [03:18] Thanks [03:18] Well. Good night. [03:18] If you haven't signed up for the discuss and regional listed I would recommend you do that to start.. theyu're open to everyone and you might have some luck there in contacting locals. [03:18] Nice. [03:19] G'night. [03:19] Thanks for the help. Good night. [03:19] Any time. [03:19] *** Beej (Beej@84349188.stny.res.14056255.com.hmsk) has left #adf [03:21] I should be hitting the hay, too. It's almost 3:30 [03:21] So long [03:22] *** valen (valen@221b3e55.dsl.stlsmo.f55b92fc.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Read error: Connection reset by peer] [03:23] *** DocHolliday (shusaikiri@5ad4d87c.mia.828b38f5.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: Dawn: When men of reason go to bed. ~Ambrose Bierce] *** Closed channel log for #adf at 1/15/2007 5:48:50 AM