*** Opened channel log for #adf at 2018-05-08 8:02:04 PM [20:02] *** Owlhawk (Owlhawk@sorcery-hfsa73.cable.rogers.com) has joined #adf [20:02] *** Topic is: Welcome to the chat for Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship (ADF). Find out more about us at http://www.adf.org [20:02] *** Topic set by ChanServ!services@services.sorcery.net on Mon Aug 3 8:55 AM [20:02] *** Mode change [+o Owlhawk] on #adf by ChanServ [20:02] http://miburl.com/kDDkAj [20:02] How are things in Canada? [20:02] A bit stressful, again speaking personally, due to the Three Rivers stuff my wife is doing... [20:03] We seem to have a lot of Canadians in ADF :) [20:03] Three Rivers stuff? [20:03] Three Rivers is Canada East's regional festival. [20:04] What groves do you have in Canada? [20:04] Held relatively close to me (I think it's an hour or two by car). [20:04] I see [20:04] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has joined #adf [20:04] In Ottawa, where I am, there's Red Maple; Thornhaven; Lake of Oaks. There's the Nova Scotia grove, called something like Nova Scotia Druids (I forget the exact name). [20:05] There's also Dancing Lights, and I think a few out west, but my memory is a bit hazy on details. [20:05] Coolness, we have a full grove here in HOUSTON and a protogrove I believe [20:05] Speaking of, anyone interested in attending Three Rivers? I can point you at details... [20:06] We're keeping local this year, so just 8 Winds [20:06] Yeah, it feels weird to hvae three groves within shouting distance of Ottawa but only about the same number in the whole rest of the country.... [20:07] It kind of makes sense though--easier for groves to hive off of a functioning grove that gets enough to split than to start from scratch [20:08] I haven't been involved to know to what extent that's a fair description of the history; all three were operating when I moved here. [20:08] There was Silver Fox in Montreal, which I was involved in back when it existed but which is no longer. [20:08] *** idx (idx@sorcery-6unoch.ihlb.ftcg.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #adf [20:08] Hello everyone [20:08] Hi [20:08] Hi idx! [20:08] There was also something else in Montreal, whose name I forget, which I think pulled out of ADF? I'd have to check details. [20:09] (That last much more recent; Silver Fox broke up around the turn of the millennium.) [20:09] How is everyone? [20:09] heya idx! [20:09] I'm fine. You? [20:09] Kicking back on the patio here! :) [20:09] I'm good! Just babbling about the Grove situation in Canada. [20:12] Hanging in there lol [20:13] *** Skyclad (Mibbit@sorcery-glqi5a.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #adf [20:13] Hello Skyclad [20:14] Hi there. Still trying to escape the roadworks? [20:15] It is quiet for the moment. THye got all 2 miles of the road stripped. Looking forward to the noise and smell of laying asphalt [20:15] sounds wonderful :D [20:15] Oh dear. That's always a cheerful smell. [20:15] lol [20:15] *** idx (idx@sorcery-6unoch.ihlb.ftcg.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [20:16] Well, when it means you have a proper road surface again.... [20:16] Very true. [20:16] Always a silver lining, right? [20:17] totally [20:17] Just remember silver does tarnish to black so a silver lining could be quite dark. [20:17] Anybody spoken to or made offerings to the roadside spirits? Maybe it'd help some? [20:17] Or it's lightning? [20:18] Couldn't hurt, Skyclad [20:20] So, anyway, Three Rivers is not huge, not surprising in view of how spread-out and poorly-populated Canada East is, but it's what we've got. [20:20] *** idx (idx@sorcery-6unoch.ihlb.ftcg.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #adf [20:21] Sorry was surfing lol [20:21] Oh dear, hafta fly, just wanted to pop in and say hello. See you all next Tuesday. Have a great chat all! [20:21] They also surf who only stand on waves! [20:21] Have a good night [20:21] Ta, Skyclad! [20:21] Night [20:21] *** Skyclad (Mibbit@sorcery-glqi5a.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [20:22] Is the chat tonight in tia channel? [20:23] *** gaarik (Mibbit@sorcery-2b7iuv.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [20:23] tia channel? [20:23] My bad this channel I meant [20:23] *** idx (idx@sorcery-6unoch.ihlb.ftcg.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [20:24] I have to leave myself. I'm turning into a pumpkin [20:24] Ahhh [20:24] Aww. Happy pumpkining, then! [20:24] Good night all!!!! [20:24] Don't let anyone turn you into a pie [20:24] Ikr [20:24] *** idx (idx@sorcery-6unoch.ihlb.ftcg.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #adf [20:24] *** clwade (Mibbit@sorcery-7bnhbs.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [20:27] *** idx (idx@sorcery-6unoch.ihlb.ftcg.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [20:27] Are there topics for tonight’s conversation? [20:28] Whatever we want to talk about [20:28] I haven't seen any mentioned, except for everyone asking how everyone else is doing. [20:28] *** Daffydbach (Mibbit@sorcery-tbgskh.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [20:28] *** gaarik (Mibbit@sorcery-2b7iuv.res.rr.com) has joined #adf [20:28] Though I am trying to find out if anyone is interested in attending Three Rinvers. :) [20:28] <-- not entirely disinterested :) [20:29] I don't have a passport so I can't attend [20:29] :( [20:29] True, it _is_ in Canada. [20:30] (Though...I don't know how long it'd take for you to get one; it's not until June 7th.) [20:30] There is the cost and then the travel costs. I am a bit faraway [20:30] *** Drum (Mibbit@sorcery-nlk6mh.sub-174-230-23.myvzw.com) has joined #adf [20:31] *** idx (idx@sorcery-6unoch.ihlb.ftcg.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #adf [20:31] Howdy! [20:31] Yes, if you're not at least comparatively close, there's that. [20:31] Ok I’m officially back lol [20:31] Hello Drum [20:31] Hi Drum! [20:31] Hi [20:31] :) [20:32] Hello drum [20:32] Good to see you all [20:33] No place i’d Rather be [20:33] *** gaarik (Mibbit@sorcery-2b7iuv.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [20:35] I should have baked you a cake [20:37] Yay have you brought me little cakes? [20:38] I will the next time I am down your way. [20:39] It looks like the local Asatru group is starting to come to our classes to learn [20:40] That sounds interesting [20:40] And you don’t have to make little cakes it’s from the magicians, inside joke and long story lol [20:41] Nice, Rovena! [20:41] *** gaarik (Mibbit@sorcery-2b7iuv.res.rr.com) has joined #adf [20:42] Should be interesting. Having new people around can be fun [20:44] Let’s all go to drums house for alcohol or Rovena’s [20:45] There is lots of alcohol at my place because I rarely drink ;) [20:45] And there's just about no alcohol at my place because I never drink. :) [20:45] Hubby can bake if you come here but alcohol is always nice. [20:45] Mead, wine beer, whiskey [20:46] You are fortunate Rovena! [20:46] Definitely. He cleans, too. I am totally spoilt. [20:46] Yay booze [20:47] My LDS brother was once convinced I needed an intervention because I had to be a drunk--I always had a lot of alcohol. I finally sat him down and explained that happens if you rarely drink much of it.. [20:47] Rovena you hit the jackpot [20:47] Out of curiousity who usually drives [20:47] I do. [20:48] That confirms my suspicions [20:48] Your the dominant one lol [20:48] Whoever drives usually is lol [20:48] Sounds like a keeper, Rovena! [20:48] She might be a better driver ;) [20:48] I drive because traffic makes him anxious [20:48] Lol [20:49] My husband cooks and cleans but drives--mostly because he hates my car [20:49] He is a keeper/ Been married for 34 yrs [20:50] Yay! [20:50] ^_^ [20:50] I rarely cook any more; I miss it [20:51] I find it funny that all the husbands do all the housework. Women are definitely getting the royal treatment [20:52] *Eyebrow Raises* [20:52] Well, I am the one that worked and he was at home so it made sense to him to do it. [20:53] Catching up to an equal share is not the same as giving a partner the royal treatment [20:54] Trust me DebbrahFoxveil, if you knew some of the guys I did it’s definitely the royal treatment 😂 [20:54] I know one guy who burns water. If it wasn’t for the women in his life I’m fairly sure he’d starve to death [20:55] Or possibly just eat out a lot. :) [20:56] I'm still hearing basically--Isn't it special and amazing when a guy does the basic stuff for his partner that women are failures if they don't do for their's? [20:56] Who mentioned failure [20:56] Unfortunately, in this culture, it still is somewhat unusual. :( [20:56] I think your inferring more than what was said [20:57] It is the flip side of getting the royal treatment--Guys doing it are giving women the royal treatment. Women, it is expected [20:57] So, any ADF questions? [20:57] Yeah... [20:57] * Mouse chuckles. Well put, Drum. [20:58] I still think that’s an inference. To me, it can be either. I’m gay so it’s the royal treatment to whomever is receiving said treatment [20:59] Okay, guys. We are beating the dead horse again. [21:00] Anyone working on anything interesting? [21:00] Well, the small medidation thing at work I mentioned a week or two ago is still going strong; doe sthat count as interesting? :) [21:00] Yes [21:01] That is wonderful! [21:01] Today after we came out of it, one of the participants said "I want to go back there!". :) [21:01] *** NathanLarge (Mibbit@sorcery-j83dm6.res.rr.com) has joined #adf [21:01] Hello NAthan [21:01] Hello! Good evening, all. [21:02] Good evening, Nathan! [21:02] *** Thexalon (Mibbit@sorcery-a890t0.res.rr.com) has joined #adf [21:02] Hi [21:02] Indeed [21:02] Hello Thexalon [21:02] Hello all. What's the topic under discussion? [21:02] Hello again, Thex. :P [21:02] Hello Nathan n Thex [21:02] DebbrahFoxveil out of curiousity are you a formal member of ADF, as in pay yearly dues? I’m noticing your still kind of new and wasn’t sure if you officially joined us yet [21:03] (idx, in case it matters, I'm not.) [21:03] *** Kae (Kae@sorcery-dtmrsi.click-network.com) has joined #adf [21:03] Yeah--back in March. Just in time to vote for people and offices that I had no clue what they really did ;) [21:04] Glad you joined :D [21:04] Very interesting welcome and Mouse, take your time. It should never be a step taken lightly [21:04] greetings all, just dropped in... [21:04] Hi [21:04] Hiya Kae [21:04] Hi hi [21:05] Hello Jae [21:05] Kae [21:05] Mouse, everyone is welcome here. [21:06] So I'd heard, Rovena; glad to hear it confirmed. [21:06] And I joined on the theory that that was the best way to test it--I'm probably a lot more having it be on probation/still a test run than many who haven't joined. [21:07] Yes Mouse, unless you brew alcohol then your attendance is basically mandatory [21:07] * Mouse laughs! "Gotcha." [21:07] That's what I told myself when my wife joined, Debbrah. "Just testing it out." [21:08] *** ShazCairns (Mibbit@sorcery-noir40.optusnet.com.au) has joined #adf [21:08] A test drive can vary in length. The important thing is to driving. [21:09] Morning all :) [21:09] Hello Shaz [21:09] Shaz!!! [21:09] Morning :) [21:09] hiya [21:09] Hey, gotta start somewhere. [21:10] *** Thexalon (Mibbit@sorcery-a890t0.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:10] *** Thexalon (Mibbit@sorcery-a890t0.res.rr.com) has joined #adf [21:10] The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step [21:11] Hi ShazCairns! [21:11] Hey :) [21:11] Or a single shot [21:11] Oh wait that’s a night of drunken fun lol [21:12] I thought you meant like getting shot out of a cannon. There's a fast journey. [21:12] That probably is a fast journey [21:12] if you’re not careful on such a night you may wake to find you’ve traveled a thousand miles... [21:12] The landing im sure is the most interesting part [21:12] Especially if you miss the net [21:13] any landing you can walk away from is a good one [21:14] Always true [21:14] I disagree: A landing where you can walk away but you're missing an arm is not a good one. [21:15] But it could be worse [21:15] a matter of perspective [21:15] Well, better than one where you're missing an arm and _can't_ walk away.... [21:15] It could always be worse, or better for that matter [21:15] I'll have a shot to that. [21:15] Aye. [21:16] Yeah, but is it better than one with broken leg--can't walk but have all your pieces attached and healable? [21:16] Well maybe they can re attach your arm [21:16] Personally, I'd just prefer to not be shot out of the cannon to begin with. :) [21:16] or make you a silver one? [21:16] My stepmother, who's a Unitarian minister, had a great story where the main character is always being told something that happened to him is great or terrible, but he insists that he doesn't know yet whether it's good or bad. Each time, what seems great is actually bad, and vice versa. [21:16] Shades of Bergelmir in _Lucifer_? :) [21:19] That's the question, isn't it? Better to land badly or not to fly at all? [21:19] I agree with Mouse, I’m not up for being made into cannon ammo [21:19] i prefer to fly with my own two wings [21:20] Think of the view [21:20] I'm not even being faux-wise. Tying it back around, I've talked to several now who join or start groups, crash and burn, then wonder whether it's worth trying again. [21:20] Several, even if you limit it to spiritual groups. [21:20] Raises hand--part of why I'm wary [21:21] Yeah, I can argue that either way, and it really depends on the person. [21:21] All my damn guides say: You know the odds favor a crash. Do it anyway! [21:21] And the more beautiful it is--well, it can make you even more cautious about the potential crash and burn [21:22] and the reasons for the crashing and burning [21:22] *** idx (idx@sorcery-6unoch.ihlb.ftcg.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [21:22] My protogrove varied from 10 at the top to many times there was only hubby and me. [21:22] One reason I stuck with ADF and my grove is that both of them have survived several crash-and-burn opportunities. [21:22] We just kept going and we are slowly getting a base [21:23] *** idx (idx@sorcery-6unoch.ihlb.ftcg.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #adf [21:23] Pretty similar story here too [21:23] Our current Grove is the result of two conflagrations, just in the time I've been in Erie. Matching your thoughts, Thex. [21:23] I was part of something that had achieved something, was solid--the potential to crash never goes away [21:24] The strategy for preventing crash-and-burn has always been to maximize the distribution of the weight. [21:24] Very true [21:24] Simple physics [21:25] And organizational stuff. [21:25] Smart biology, too. Seed widely, grow up from roots after the fire. [21:25] we had a group here where i am (not adf) that crashed pretty hard. it was painful to learn that the feeling of community was not as real as it seemed to be. [21:25] some of our trees here only grow if there has been a fire [21:25] When you involve people, they fell valued [21:25] fell= feel [21:25] The lesser the [21:26] Ego the better chance of success [21:26] It's not just that: Every little job other people are doing is less that the key organizers are doing. [21:26] And if something happens to the key organizers, the fact that other people are used to doing parts of their job ensures somebody can make sure the job gets done. [21:27] what about when no one steps up? seems like organizers burn out because people don’t want to help carry the weight [21:27] ADF international is kind of past that point: There are enough people who've done enough jobs that it's fairly resilient to any individual or even a group dropping out. [21:27] I've seen that happen in a few cases. [21:27] And sometimes all the love and dedication in the world just isn't enough. Sometimes there can be nothing wrong, really. Just not enough that was right [21:28] *** idx (idx@sorcery-6unoch.ihlb.ftcg.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [21:29] There does need to be enough confidence for people to step up and act when needed. Not sure if that's 'ego', exactly. [21:29] *** idx (idx@sorcery-6unoch.ihlb.ftcg.fb90.2607.IP) has joined #adf [21:29] But that's also something that can be grown. [21:29] Definitely. [21:29] Alright everyone I’m heading out, have a good night [21:29] Night! [21:30] night [21:30] good night! [21:30] And confidence enough to challenge power when it sees something is off/wrong and those in power shrug/don't see it [21:30] 'Night! [21:30] Night [21:30] Our members can host a ritual if they want. They get to do as much as they are comfortable. Over time we have several ritualists. [21:30] One strategy I've employed, successfully, as a leader is making it clear that I'm not doing XYZ anymore, so somebody who likes XYZ needs to step up if they want it to happen. [21:30] well and enough feeling of investment to take the trouble to challenge instead of just bowing out [21:31] And doing it to better the group, not just to be heard and praised for 'rightness'. [21:31] Night [21:31] *** idx (idx@sorcery-6unoch.ihlb.ftcg.fb90.2607.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [21:31] Night idx [21:31] As far as rituals go, Stone Creed's current strategy is to have 2 ritual leaders for all rites. Usually 1 more experienced leader, and 1 who is training to be a leader. [21:31] But that means that if 1 of them can't do it for whatever reason, the ritual will still happen. [21:32] that sounds like a very good plan! [21:32] Not a bad thought. [21:32] I'm gonna steal it. [21:32] gives people an opportunity to gain confidence [21:32] I think that is a good plan [21:32] We have done that in our Grove. We now have 2 other people who I know can lead [21:32] I daresay it could be applied to more positions than just ritual leader. [21:32] Of course. [21:33] Indeed Mouse [21:33] Heh, the Sith principle. "Always, there are two." [21:33] Redundancy! [21:33] but i think the brilliance is not just redundancy but also the opportunity for training [21:34] We've been blessed by having two active clergy, now three for a bit, so there hasn't been as much worry about someone qualified to run things in case of emergency. [21:34] *** gaarik (Mibbit@sorcery-2b7iuv.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:35] Every time a job is delegated, it's a training opportunity. For instance, I recently delegated the job of putting grove events on Facebook. Now, not only do I not have to do it, but that's one part of my job someone else knows how to do. [21:35] Excellent point. [21:36] And yes, that includes really little jobs, like "Set up the chairs before rite", "Get the coffee going", etc. [21:36] And for ritual leaders, you draw from the people who've done a bunch of parts and are getting familiar with them. [21:37] I often think people get hung up with worry that someone wont do it as well as they can. [21:37] *** Drum (Mibbit@sorcery-nlk6mh.sub-174-230-23.myvzw.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:37] My worry when delegating is that the person will resent being obligated, even if (especially if) they don't say no. [21:37] They probably won't, at least at first, because they're new to it. You help them do the thing, though, so they can muddle through well enough. [21:38] i think there is quite a bit of “stage fright “ that keeps people from trying, as far as leading ritual [21:38] Stage speaking is a skill that can be learned. Including overcoming stage fright. [21:39] But then habits form' [21:39] One of our jokes about the monthly sixth night moon rituals: "Now is the time to try and fail." [21:39] lol! [21:39] And then making changes, well that usually is met with the most resistence [21:39] Because they're private and any member could do any part without fear of public view. [21:40] *** RocasCearcall (Mibbit@sorcery-1cejad.mssnks.sbcglobal.net) has joined #adf [21:41] Hello Rocas [21:41] How is everyone doing tonight? [21:41] Hi [21:41] Hi there [21:41] Doing well! [21:42] hangin in! [21:42] Good! inspiration is being kind [21:43] Hard at work a lot lately, but that's good for me. [21:43] I am pretty new, so I am just reading through Rev. Dangler's book at the moment. Work has been tough this last couple of weeks, so I am enjoying a evening off. [21:44] Glad you decided to spend it with us [21:44] RocasCearcall Welcome aboard then. [21:44] Some of my acquaintances elsechannel were talking, just today, about taking burnout-avoidance vacations.... [21:44] Any DP-related questions others might be able to help with? [21:46] I don't think so. Not right off-hand. I have read the DP manual and Rev. Ellison's solitary book, so I think I have the general idea. [21:46] We are always here if you do have a question in the future [21:46] Mostly, it's just going to be doing the work. I am also in the Ancient Order of Druids in America and the Drudical Order of the Golden Dawn, but I was looking for more of a religious practice than they offer. [21:47] My advice is, in general, to just start doing rituals as best you can. The experience of it matters more than the theory. [21:47] same here re. obod [21:48] There are ritual on YouTube you can watch to see how others do it [21:48] I'm curious what you mean when you say religious (I can think of a couple ways for that to be meant) [21:48] Thanks. I appreciate it. I have seen the solitary ritual that Ian Corrigan recorded. It was a big help. [21:49] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-rnpd1s.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [21:49] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-rnpd1s.hnremote.net) has joined #adf [21:49] *** Mode change [+o Rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [21:50] AODA and DOGD are more about magic and spirituality. While gods can be involved, it is less devotional. [21:50] I was looking for something more devotional, I suppose. [21:51] ADF can be about magic and spirituality if you want it to be. Deities and other beings are certainly there, but if you want to work magic you absolutely can. [21:52] An ADF Grove is how I found that magic had reality for me. [21:52] one thing i really like about ADF is that everyone doesn’t have to be clergy. Some of us are happy to be the folk [21:53] Kae One part of the ordination ritual for clergy is that someone from the folk is responsible for placing the stole on the new clergy-person. The point of that is that the clergy are the minority, and serve the folk. [21:54] I like that. [21:54] Partially, I am trying to figure out how I feel about the gods. I actually consider myself to be Wiccan, but I seem to be leaning pretty far in to polytheism. [21:54] That's what's been irking me about the FB discussion about 'elitism'. Clergy study isn't about getting titles to be 'better than'. It's about training for a job to be able to serve in that capacity. [21:55] Which still works for many forms of Wicca [21:55] To paraphrase that earlier question - and this is just curiosity on my part - in what sense(s) do you consider yourself Wiccan? Religious? Magical? Social? Etc? [21:55] that’s very cool, and totally in line with what first inspired me about Druidry many years ago when i read spirits of the sacred grove by e. r. orr [21:55] Same for bardic work. Same for scholarship. Same for brewing, for that matter. [21:56] Nathan, ideally yes... but I can see how it can be misunderstood [21:56] Nathan, I think that's what the attitude should be, but there is an unfortunate tendency to be all "look what I can do that you can't!". :( [21:56] (Not in the ADF so much as in humanity, or at least in current North American culture.) [21:56] Right, some do it, but it's not baked inherently into having training. [21:56] Some people get this idea that being Grand Poo-bah is the point of being in ADF. The funny thing is that all the Grand Poo-bah's I've known among ADF were really doing their best to stop being Grand Poo-bah. [21:57] I volunteer in other groups where I see that a lot too. There is no "power" just more work to do [21:57] I consider myself Wiccan in that generally believe that all deities are understandings of the same divinity that I am too human to truly understand. But, I have been pretty specifically drawn to certain goddesses and gods, such as The Morrigan for example. [21:57] I've been wandering in some New Age directions, and one of the teachers I've found worth paying attention to has, as almost a catchphrase, "allow me to serve; show me the way". [21:57] i think it’s natural to want to celebrate one’s accomplishments but it can certainly go to far [21:58] Celebrate, that's not a problem. See oneself as "better" because of, well, that does tend to end up causing problems. [21:58] The ADF group here seems pretty relaxed, though I reached out to them a bit too late to actually join them for Beltane. [21:58] I see a different level of it in members generally about ADF in relation to those outside ADF, reflecting that onto the clergy is a natural extension. [21:58] i agree entirely [21:58] (Actually, on reflection, seeing oneself as "better than" others because of pretty much _anything_ leads to problems.) [22:00] i’m fairly new to adf but i haven’t encountered any ego-rabid poobahs or poobah-wannabes yet... is this a thing in adf? [22:00] Thanks for some great conversations today, but now I need to be off. [22:00] Nice to catch up... bye :) [22:01] Bye [22:01] Bye. [22:01] Kae, in my (limited) experience it's about as much of a thing in ADF as in any other organization of about the same size. [22:01] By, ShazCairns! [22:01] *** ShazCairns (Mibbit@sorcery-noir40.optusnet.com.au) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [22:01] bye! [22:01] Kae Matter of opinion: There are some people who see the current Poobahs as being too ego-rabid, there are also some Poobah wannabes who show up, do some stuff, realize they aren't quickly going to become Poobah, and leave. [22:01] Mouse i guess that makes sense. humans are humans [22:02] Exactly, Mouse. Which is why the people who make it about the org irritate so much. I want to know where they've found a noble legion free of humanity's flaws. [22:02] Strive for better. Understand when it doesn't happen. [22:02] Sometimes, the "org sucks" crowd hates all organizations because they're organizations. [22:02] lol! [22:03] Sometimes, the "org sucks" crowd has a legitimate complaint they want addressed and feel it isn't. [22:03] Sometimes, the "org sucks" crowd is mostly mad that they aren't the ones in charge of the organization and looking for an excuse to attack the current leadership. [22:03] I mean, sure, Hail Eris, but being an dedicated outsider is as boring as being a follower. :P [22:03] I meant, @Kae just that I see a lot of "oooh, we're so special and scholarly and etc, etc" and making assumptions about other groups. And that sort of presumed elitism does then naturally create an elitist of the elite mentality [22:03] i have been pretty irritated with the org sucks crowd on the email lists... do they volunteer to do the work themselves if they think it can be done better? [22:04] interesting Deborah [22:05] I've gotten the impression that they feel like they need an office/title to have permission to do it? [22:05] to each one’s own! scholarly isn’t for everyone [22:05] And it is true that ADF expects a certain level of scholarly training for its leaders. But lots of people just do stuff. [22:05] Which is one of the things that I found interesting about ADF. There seems to be a lot of paths for a lot of different people depending on interests. [22:06] I also have to avoid bristling at perceived anti-intellectualism. I grew up used to every 'smart' comment being treated like an accusation of stupidity. [22:07] And to quote a bit of an article I wrote: ' One aspect of modern paganism is that it tends to attract those who want to rebel against the established norms. So quite naturally, many of those who get interested rebel against any institutions they encounter, including pagan institutions.' [22:07] i generally wait for someone to ask a question before i spew knowledge [22:07] I'm always surprised what gets considered "talking down". [22:08] Thexalon that makes sense, I have seen that [22:08] I think that (for some people anyway), there is a general weariness of elitism carried over from bad experiences with other religions. [22:09] Ooh, good point, Thexalon. [22:10] I think part of it that rubs me wrong enough to notice is just that I came from a tradition that highly valued learning and training. So every time someone starts holding up the DP as this unique example of what ADF does.... grrr [22:10] How do you like the people arguing it's TOO MUCH TOO HARD? [22:11] There is the oxymoron issue--It is special and elite but much too hard [22:11] So many traditions keep everything about their path of training concealed from non-initiates. but that’s no reason to assume they don’t have one [22:11] If they think the DP is hard - what are they going to think of the advance programs? [22:12] The Dedicant's Program, according to the people who wrote it, was intended as the basic "ADF Druidry 101 survey", so that you'd have a base of understanding before trying something more advanced. [22:12] at least the DP isn’t required [22:12] Basically, the freshmen distribution requirements of an academic institution. [22:12] And a lot of the time I see it being argued about it being too hard almost as if to reinforce the special and elite aspect. [22:12] I honestly haven't found another tradition where there is both scholarship and an expectation that anyone could do it. Either 'everyone is equally qualified' or else 'some people will never get it'. [22:13] *correction: 'everyone is qualified without any learning required' [22:13] it might be helpful for some people to have something like a class with a teacher and a cohort [22:14] I remember spending two years in Methodist confirmation as a kid. AODA requires a lot of reading about local ecology in the first year. Nothing about the DP seemed horribly difficult, although there is a fair amount of writing, but the word counts are small. [22:14] Kae You can get a teacher if you ask for one. [22:15] Mentors are available to help [22:15] That’s great [22:15] Isn't the DP only required if you want to go on to advanced training? [22:16] Correct [22:16] Yes, but it has become a bit of an argument sometimes on Facebook and such that it is an elitist requirement' [22:17] I don’t think it seems hard but I’m college educated. Some people struggle with research and writing at the high school level. I can see how it might be daunting for some [22:17] You have to graduate high school before you go to college [22:17] Ah. I think I thought of it more like general education during a college degree. If you can't do that, then you probably wouldn't be able to handle your major classes either. [22:17] Which any requirement, technically, is going to be a bit elitist--it is going to create those who can and those who can't [22:17] But no one is required to do. [22:18] Well, those who do and those who don't; the question of why those who can but don't don't is sometimes and interesting one.... [22:19] I suspect some of them fear they can't and prefer to not try rather than to risk failing. [22:19] (And that is not restricted to DP, nor even the ADF.) [22:19] I can understand that. I am a writer, and we see a lot of that. People write, but don't submit to publishers out of fear of rejection. [22:20] Which is fine, if that is what they want. But some always wonder, but never try. [22:20] I think the org has the right to set standards for leadership. If those standards are unattainable for some, and they aspire to leadership, then it may not be the right org for them. in a way i guess that is elitist. but the alternative is to water down the standards and that would make the org something else entirely [22:21] Mouse minor point: It's not "the ADF", it's just "ADF". The "A" in "ADF" is an article. Also, there's another organization referred to as "the ADF" which we definitely aren't in agreement with, because they're a legal fund to defend US Nazis. [22:21] Also the Australian Defense Forces [22:22] Aryan Defense Fund or some such? Ick. [22:22] I'm playing with it--but not certain I will finish it. For me, it is a lot of 'busy work' and I'm not clear on what it gains me. I'm not sure I'm interested in leadership. So, other than a sense of 'eh, why not', I'm not sure there is much motivation there at this point [22:22] Well, in my experience it is generally called "the ADF", despite the redundancy, much the way people speak of an "ATM machine" or "the hoi polloi". [22:23] I’ve just been waiting to wrap up my masters thesis before diving into the DP! [22:23] The motivation for some people is very simply the "Hey, I want to have confidence I know what I'm doing". [22:24] I am about to start a second master's, the DP might be slow going for me. [22:24] second master’s, ouch! [22:24] You can do the DP whenever it is convenient to do so [22:25] I have one in literature, and I am about to start an MFA program in writing. I am hoping to fit the DP in around all of that. [22:25] You can take as long as you wnat to finish it [22:25] that’s awesome [22:25] That is pretty impressive! [22:25] Yeah, and really the DP is a bunch of stuff that I would do anyway. I read and write in pretty much all of my free time. [22:26] Yeah, but I have that confidence. If I were completely solitary, maybe it would be more motivating. But with the grove and protogrove situation here... and then that adds their politics into the mix... eh. [22:26] I am actually a cop, so it will be a nice break from dealing with that stuff. [22:26] i bet! [22:26] Very very different worlds! [22:27] Well, I needed a way to make a living with research and writing skills, and I talked my way in to getting a shot as a police officer. [22:27] I figured that I would do it for a few years and move on to academia, but I am going on 13 years, now. [22:28] I am a detective. Lots of reading and writing. [22:29] Debbrah are you saying you are less motivated to do the DP because you have a grove? [22:31] In a way. [22:33] Because it adds layers of interactions and expectations and politics--especially if I come in and do it right away when all the established people haven't [22:33] It depends a lot on how nasty the politics are, though. [22:33] Interesting, I’m the opposite. I feel like having a community to practice with would make me more invested and motivated. Fortunately I have recently started celebrating High Days with Cascadia Grove and I really enjoy the group [22:33] If your established people are the sort that want to get out of doing everything, they'll be overjoyed to have someone who's been motivated enough to get the DP done. [22:34] I know having a group motivates me. I did basically zero practice between Silver Fox exploding and my moving to Ottawa and finding Red Maple. [22:34] You could always do it on the down low... lol [22:35] But invested and motivated to do it for what? And that, Thexalon, is much of the concern. With the flip side being people who have been taking years to do it and resent it [22:35] I know that in my grove, me getting it done was part of what induced our senior druid to get his done. [22:36] If it was required for something I really wanted, no problem. But it just isn't, that I see, at this time [22:36] Debbrah i guess I mean invested and motivated because I want community and having a grove would make me want to get more involved [22:37] I get what you are saying. I have been weary of groves and covens and have been pretty isolated in my practices overall. There is a whole dynamic there, like starting to watch a television drama mid-season. [22:37] Sorry to idle so much... then had to catch up. So much discussion! [22:37] i guess i just crave community. i am an involuntary solitary [22:38] but i hope that is changing [22:39] Which I think for me, not wanting to step on toes until I'm connected a bit more. There is a bit of feeling like it then commits me. I crave community, that is a big part of why I'm looking at ADF at all. [22:39] I don’t want to do the DP to advance into leadership, but to deepen my knowledge and practice of ADF druidry [22:40] Which is the best reason to do the DP. [22:40] I think the overall sentiment is backing up the Hearth path ideas. Get people invested and active without a documentation requirement. Some might back into the DP after realizing they *already* know enough to write up. [22:40] I really like the hearthkeeper idea! [22:41] 90% of it I could do from general experience, so I don't have that same feeling from it. Hence the busy work feeling [22:42] Having something more like the hearthkeeper idea feels more like doing something new/feeling the differences [22:42] DebbrahFoxveil My experience is that when I think I could do 90% of an ADF course solely from my prior knowledge, I've been wrong 100% of the time. [22:42] Nothing like writing about something to really help you crystallize your understanding though [22:42] True [22:42] So true! [22:43] but i’m not trying to pressure anyone... [22:44] I tend to need the opposite--I tend to overthink. Philosophy background. Writing and thinking and reading just aren't my issues [22:44] not issues for me either... just something i value [22:44] Moving from theory into practice? There is where I get stuck more. [22:45] but i get that there is no substitute for practice [22:45] Anyhow, quarter to eleven in the evening here; I need to toddle off. So I'll mention Three Rivers Festival once more in case anyone who wasn't on when I mentioned it before is interested.... [22:45] Night. [22:45] It's wiser to go from practice to theory, if you can. [22:45] And I'll mention Wellspring, coming right up in a few weeks. [22:45] the DP as i understand it requires practice. then writing about your practice to help you analyze what you have learned from it [22:46] Exactly. [22:46] night Mouse! [22:46] Good Night Mouse [22:47] 'Night, people! [22:47] * Mouse curls up to idle. [22:48] i think for me the biggest value of doing the DP is that it will require me to practice and help me develop a structure for my practice [22:49] That is a definite value [22:49] i’m lazy and it’s so much easier to read than to get up and do a ritual! [22:50] I guess that goes back to my sense of how much am I ready to commit to this/still feeling it out [22:50] Which is why I am reading The Tain right now and now meditating. [22:50] not meditating [22:50] that makes sense. i guess that is why it’s called the dedicant path. you want to be ready to dedicate to it [22:51] i’m chatting with druids and not meditating or making dinner! [22:51] Leftovers--thanks to the husband who cooks and cleans ;) [22:52] Actually you are dedicating to yourself [22:52] Think of it as "fellowship." :p [22:52] that’s a good clarification Rovena [22:54] Thank you. As a mentor, I had better it it right [22:54] i’m going to have to say goodnight... i promised someone here a tofu stir fry... [22:54] Good Cooking [22:55] Night--ironically, that is similar to the leftovers I am eating [22:55] i have very much enjoyed the convo. i’m on the west coast and usually don’t remember these chats until it’s too late [22:55] Same here [22:55] where are you Debbrah? [22:55] We have been going later lately [22:55] Bay Area, CA--You? [22:56] Tacoma WA [22:56] night all! [22:56] Night [22:56] *** Kae (Kae@sorcery-dtmrsi.click-network.com) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] [22:57] I should back out myself. Other duties call. Good night, all, thank you for the discussion! [22:57] Til next time [22:57] Night as well [22:58] *** NathanLarge (Mibbit@sorcery-j83dm6.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [22:58] I'm out as well. [22:58] *** Thexalon (Mibbit@sorcery-a890t0.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [22:58] Night [23:03] *** RocasCearcall (Mibbit@sorcery-1cejad.mssnks.sbcglobal.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [23:04] Well, it looks like it is just you and me, Debbrah [23:05] Yep... [23:06] So do we plot to take over the world or find something to discuss? [23:07] Well, world domination sounded like fun when I was younger. Now it sounds like a lot of thankless work [23:07] So I'm more inclined to discussion [23:07] I agree [23:09] Just to be clear, I was not saying the DP is pointless, just that I first need to feel that connection and have a sense of what I want from/can give to ADF before it is worth it to me [23:10] And a couple months in, I'm not there yet [23:11] No problem. Many people never do it. It will there if and when you do want to do it. [23:12] Meanwhile, playing wirh altar making is much more fun ;) [23:12] My husband will never do it because he has no interest in the advanced study programs. [23:13] As long as you are enjoying it then it is what you should be doing right now. [23:17] I confess to having a bit of culture shock with the tone of rituals. And I'm not sure how much is the Grove versus more and ADF thing. I guess I'll see at Eight Winds/get a wider sense of things. [23:17] But I kind of do feel a bit like I went from Big Tent Revival to LDS Wardhouse for ritual [23:18] You can also watch other groves do rituals on YouTUbe. EVerybody does they a bit differently [23:20] That is a good idea--I more than half suspect it is a case of clergy burn out with no one else stepping up for ritualist locally [23:20] Our grove doesn't have any clergy so we are way out ther [23:20] e [23:22] I only have a little of the backstory, but the impression I get is it has become _____'s Grove in the mind of a lot of the members, even while he screams NO, EVERYONE. But he seems to have given up/not really tried to force them to fill the roles they depend on him for. [23:23] We are always looking for new ways to do things to keep ritual interesting [23:23] Understand that. [23:24] I've been lucky that there has always been at least one person who wants to do stuff. [23:25] Officially wer have three members but have had 3 nonmembers that have been hanging with us fairly regularly [23:26] Well and that becomes my worry--I want to do stuff if I am involved more than tangentially. But does that become a coup in the eyes of the core group? [23:26] It shouldn't be seen that way because you don't need to do the DP to write or lead ritual. [23:27] I am the only one in my group to have done it and the other two don't intend to do it. [23:27] THey still write and lead ritual [23:30] Technically, a coup would require you and two others to take over the officers and that can only be done by a vote [23:31] I think that is where I want to see and feel that first, even just seeing others doing so, before I can picture enough of a future with that grove to be worth investing the sort of commitment doing DP would be. And if not with that group, I need to feel out what I want outside of a grove. [23:32] And see if the DP makes sense that way [23:32] Understand that. It is your future and you need to be comfortable with it [23:34] Which goes back to the crash and burn conversation earlier--once you've been burned, you tend to be a bit more cautious, and I am. [23:35] I look at the people who jump in all gungho ready to churn it out asap, and there is just this sense of "I was that young once..." ;) [23:35] That is fine. Take things at your pace. It needs to make sense to you and feel right to you. [23:37] I also have a lot of scholastic pride/ego and that is nagging me--Just a 'come one, do it, just 'cause, first in your class, etc, etc.' Which is actually IMO a readson to resist it until I have the better connection [23:37] I can't type tonight--reason. Not readson [23:37] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-rnpd1s.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [23:37] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-rnpd1s.hnremote.net) has joined #adf [23:38] So, that horse hide being tanned, got any other topics? [23:38] Until you are ready, you won't get out of it what you need [23:38] *** Mode change [+o Rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [23:38] Can't think of one right now [23:39] Here--so I'm having fun with the altars. Especially mini-portable ones [23:40] Portable ones can test your understanding of altars [23:40] One I'm playing with is three small flask pendants, each with appropriate symbols on them for the fire/tree/well [23:40] Cool [23:40] Obviously water or silvered water for the well. [23:41] Alcohol or oil makes sense in the fire [23:41] but I haven't quite figured out what to put in the tre. [23:41] tree [23:41] any thoughts? [23:42] maybe some leaves or pine needles [23:42] where it is a flask, it lends itself more to a liquid, but I could powder something. [23:43] Tiny little cremains/perfume flask [23:43] okay [23:44] maybe some scented fluid that reminds you of trees [23:44] I like the idea of it being usable almost as an offering. [23:44] So not something that would spoil easily [23:44] makes ssense [23:45] powder might be the answer. [23:46] Powder doesn't spoil [23:47] I hate to do this but I need to sign off. My bed and hubby are calling me. [23:48] night [23:48] *** DebbrahFoxveil (Mibbit@sorcery-in9k38.ca.comcast.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [23:48] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-rnpd1s.hnremote.net) has quit IRC [Quit:] [04:01] *** Raggiedmon (IceChat9@sorcery-oo99lo.com.xplornet.com) has joined #adf [04:21] *** Raggiedmon (IceChat9@sorcery-oo99lo.com.xplornet.com) has quit IRC [Quit: When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty] [06:25] *** Drum (Mibbit@sorcery-ht484j.buckeyecom.net) has joined #adf [06:25] *** Drum (Mibbit@sorcery-ht484j.buckeyecom.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [07:21] *** Aidan (Mutter@sorcery-ru70ss.t57u.5phi.1005.2600.IP) has joined #adf [07:29] *** Aidan (Mutter@sorcery-ru70ss.t57u.5phi.1005.2600.IP) has quit IRC [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] *** Closed channel log for #adf at 2018-05-09 9:42:35 AM