*** Opened channel log for #ADF at 2017-05-09 6:44:43 PM [18:44] *** Owlhawk (Owlhawk@sorcery-2bv46v.cable.rogers.com) has joined #ADF [18:44] *** ChanServ has changed the topic on #ADF to "Welcome to the chat for Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship (ADF). Find out more about us at http://www.adf.org" [18:44] *** Mode change [+r] on #ADF by ChanServ [19:04] *** amberrattus (Mibbit@sorcery-qltcil.res.rr.com) has joined #ADF [19:05] *** amberrattus (Mibbit@sorcery-qltcil.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [19:05] *** NathanLarge (Mibbit@sorcery-qltcil.res.rr.com) has joined #ADF [19:05] All right, there we go. Hello, Owlhawk! Wonder if it'll pick up in here later. [19:08] [Owlhawk] doesn't start for another hour [19:08] [Owlhawk] I'm early [19:14] Ahhh. 7pm central, not eastern? [19:18] [Owlhawk] yup [19:41] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-oln.njf.45.67.IP) has joined #ADF [19:41] *** Mode change [+o Rovena] on #ADF by ChanServ [20:01] Still here... still quiet. :( [20:03] If it is too quiet then make some NOISE! [20:04] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-oln.njf.45.67.IP) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [20:04] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-oln.njf.45.67.IP) has joined #ADF [20:04] *** Mode change [+o Rovena] on #ADF by ChanServ [20:05] Stupid storm front looks to be moving in early [20:05] [Owlhawk] good luck [20:06] It is suppose to be only rain and not too heavy. [20:07] I probably need the luck more with Liturgy 1 - - I submitted it a couple of hours ago. [20:07] *** beej (beej@sorcery-tpol94.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) has joined #ADF [20:07] Hello Beej [20:07] How are you tonight? [20:07] HI Rovena [20:08] Pretty good. Work is so-so, and I'm in the middle of an actual elist discussion! [20:08] How are you? [20:09] Okay. An e-list discussion?!!? They actually still happen? That is good. [20:09] Rarely, to be sure. [20:10] Did you have a good Cross-Quarter celebration? [20:11] Yes. Had a new couple there. They were at a class over a month ago but life had bite them in the behind. THey said they plan on coming more often [20:12] Tried a new (to us) method to open/close the Gates and it went well. [20:12] Awesome! It's always nice when new faces return and become new friends [20:12] How was yours? [20:12] Very true. [20:13] *** Raggiedmon (IceChat9@sorcery-5vpn3f.ipv6.telus.net) has joined #ADF [20:13] We honored Dollar, and despite last minute struggles to relate to her, we and out offerings were well received. [20:13] Hello Raggiedmon [20:13] Hi Raggiedmom [20:14] Cool. [20:14] That's actually partly what the elist discussion is about. Or what inspired it. [20:14] Yes. I have been following that topic. [20:15] And I'm hoping the recording went well enough that we can extract the storytelling from it, since I had no idea and no backstories to draw from. [20:16] Hope it goes well then [20:17] I'll be sad if I can't get a transcript at the least. [20:18] Understand that. [20:19] Any plans for the month of May? [20:19] Wellspring? [20:20] Studying and, hopefully, hubby will have surgery to remove bone spurs. Waiting on the results of today's MRI to find out. [20:20] Maybe next year for Wellspring. [20:21] I want to go. [20:22] Yikes. Bones spurs suck. [20:23] I haven't been to Wellspring in 8 years. I miss it, but I'm not sure how I'd feel at the new location, since the locale is as much a part of my memory as the people. [20:23] Ello [20:23] Hi. Welcome. [20:24] Welcome [20:24] How are all this eve? [20:25] Back! Sorry to gripe and run. Went off to write a bit of liturgy, myself. [20:25] Waiting for rain to move in. [20:25] Congratulations, Rowena (catching up). [20:25] Catch you next time [20:25] *Rovena [20:25] Doing good, Raggiedmom. How's your week been? [20:26] Eh I am enduring [20:27] That's a start, I suppose. [20:27] WB nathan [20:28] I'm working on a bit of a Druid Primer meant to make sure fellow grove members know at least the very basics of ADF druidry. [20:29] (So I'm not embarrassed should they visit another grove!) [20:29] My people are unlikely to visit another group as groups are so far away. [20:30] But understanding what ADF is is important [20:30] I would've said the same thing, and then a guy went clear across to the other coast of the country [20:31] Yes, they can surprise you. [20:31] Well, they know what ADF is, but they know my take... [20:31] And most are not ADF members with access to the DP. [20:32] *** Thexalon (Mibbit@sorcery-a890t0.res.rr.com) has joined #ADF [20:32] Agreed that you do generally have to push information at people. [20:32] That is like my grove. Only the 3 officers are members. [20:32] Hello Thexalon [20:32] Howdy! [20:33] Hi Thexalon [20:33] I'm finding that even with everything publicly available, not enough look for themselves. [20:33] Yes, exactly. And they rely on my presentation of things. [20:33] Hi Thexalon! [20:33] Just thought I'd pop in. [20:33] But, for example, I don't use the Wiccan names for the High Days. So anyone visiting elsewhere with no other pagan background may not know what "Beltane" is [20:33] And based on what I'm hearing: Even if you present everything 3 times, and have it publicly available, there will be people who will still ask. [20:34] Exactly!! [20:34] So, my little Primer is kids school kinds of stuff... draw a line from each Kindred to their respective realm [20:34] As for names of high days, there's something to be said for using English names in English-speaking culture. For example, everyone understands what "May Day" is. [20:35] ... circle the nine Dedicant Virtues from this list of 40 virtues. [20:35] Many people have been trained to think one way and when you say "blue" they actually hear it as "blue-green" [20:35] Crossword puzzle! [20:35] No crosswords yet, but I've considered it for some of the terms [20:35] I was happy to see the recent discussion about 'learning songs' on the FB group. [20:36] The thing with virtues, though, is that the 9 mentioned in the Dedicant's Manual are *not* supposed to be dogma. [20:36] The Games & Play SIG has mentioned things like 'Mythology Go Fish' and other teaching games. [20:36] As in, they're not supposed to be like the 10 commandments of druidry or something. [20:37] Totally agree, Thexalon. That's why I always call them the Dedicant Virtues. And repeat ad infinitum that they are beginner virtues to start you study [20:37] (disclaimer: still not yet an official SIG.) [20:37] I haven't heard much from the Games group in a while. Either they've dropped off my FB feed or they got quite. But games are def a great learning tool [20:38] quiet [20:38] And the virtuse def should not be viewed as 'commandments'. [20:39] Busier this week, at least. Lots of information base documents posted. [20:39] I have watched the most amazing mental gymnastics as folks try to squeeze situations and behaviors into the beginner 9. If it weren't so earnest, it would make me giggle [20:39] In the DP you are can disagree with the listed ones. [20:39] Rovena, I think I disagreed with half of them for various reasons. [20:40] (back on main discussion) Our dedicant group mentioned just that topic this week: history and disputability of the Virtues. [20:41] But I do think that grove members should at least be familiar with them in the sense that they may know what other ADFers are talking about. [20:41] subtitle: "every other religion has 'em, why don't we?" :P [20:41] Meh. Because we have something more robust. [20:41] Because we don't do either formalized beliefs or commandments. [20:42] It is certainly difficult to get across the idea of orthopraxy and get it to stick [20:42] *** Oak_Shaman (Mibbit@sorcery-nude4r.client.mchsi.com) has joined #ADF [20:42] Hey everyone! [20:42] Many people are more comfortable with orthodoxy than they are willing to admit [20:42] They're handy as a touchstone for policy, though. "Is this rule X? Why or why not?" [20:43] Hi Oak! [20:43] Hello Oak Shaman [20:43] Hi Oak_Shaman [20:43] How are you folks? [20:43] I'm not sure I even like them for policy. [20:43] Doing fine [20:43] I am also known as Ty Davis fyi. You may have seen me around FB. [20:44] Unfortunately, they are a necessary evil. [20:44] Doing good. [20:44] I know Rovena has. [20:44] Oh, Yes I do know you! [20:44] what was the topic before I came storming in? [20:44] If I had my druthers.... that whole sectino of the DP would be scrapped and replaced with a philosophical exploration of Virtue in and of itself. [20:45] Right now, the DP virtues [20:45] Are you planning to complete the DP or have you done so BEEJ? [20:45] [Owlhawk] BJ, that's not doable by the average member. [20:46] Sure it is [20:46] How can you possible talk about the virtue of X Y or Z if you don't even graps the basics of what a virtue is? [20:46] [Owlhawk] a proper philosophical essay? not a hope [20:46] Beej, I understand the impulse. I'd think it would be better to say "Here's a list of 15 concepts of virtuous behavior that exist in pagan lore. Pick 9 of them and write about them." [20:47] I LERVE Philosophy. I have to teach the basics to my students. [20:47] Oak_shaman, I completed the DP a couple years ago, worked on it for 12 prior to complettion [20:47] oh man? I am in my third year and just have a couple of more books to read. [20:48] *** Oak_Shaman (Mibbit@sorcery-nude4r.client.mchsi.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [20:48] *** Oak_Shaman (Mibbit@sorcery-nude4r.client.mchsi.com) has joined #ADF [20:48] I see the philosophical process in reverse. Start with examples, describe those, THEN see how they're incomplete and where they converge to a general concept. [20:48] I am back. [20:49] But if folks did have to explore what is a virtue even at the most superficial level, it would be far easier to understand those examples. [20:49] We would see far less of the dogma and mental gymnastics that we see right now [20:49] I can't really find two authors who agree on a definition of ethics, though. [20:49] That's ok. No dogma, right? [20:49] It's a tough concept to crack, though. Heck, Plato's dialogues spend hundreds of pages and still don't arrive at a clear answer a lot of the time. [20:50] True. [20:50] Our grove discussions on virtues starts each time with a brief overview of Aristlean virtues.. takes less than half a page [20:51] I always saw the point of that requirement as an indication, basically, of "Look kids, pagans do have morals, it's not a free-for-all!" [20:51] ooo, good choice Beej [20:51] Yes, well, that's where the dogma begins. We don't have commandments [20:51] [Owlhawk] aristole should take longer then taht to summarize [20:51] And we don't all agree on our morals. [20:51] The virtues do help construct a firm Social contract for our organization as well. [20:52] That we should all be fertile and have a vision for the future? [20:52] I think we do, to some extent. People can debate what wisdom *is*, but I doubt many argue that wisdom is valuable. [20:53] I had a grove member demonstrate how Hitler embodied every one of the 9 DP virtues. It was a perfect mental exercise in understanding the limitations of such a lesson [20:53] How was Hitler Hospitable? lol [20:54] How did he embody fertility? He had no children, he never farmed, he did nothing to improve wildlife, etc. [20:54] I don't recall, but it was accurate within the scope of the virtue. [20:54] Similarly, there may be many good definitions... but there are certainly bad definitions. [20:54] as described in the DP essay [20:54] And Hitler definitely wasn't wise. [20:54] He created a thriving economy [20:55] And let's not forget that they never actually meant "fertility" when they named the virtue that for the essay. [20:55] Up until large portions of the world bombed it back into poverty... [20:55] TEchnicality [20:55] I would accept some pretty crazy philosophical arguments in a Lincoln Douglas Debate case but I feel the virtue assignments do a great job of grasping to a broader Social Contract for ADF. [20:56] I think they teach the wrong lesson [20:56] Technicalities define reality! (Fifty Tonnes). [20:57] You know, the guilds used to each have their own set of virtues specific to the focus of the guild. [20:57] hmm, never knew that. [20:57] Speaking of the importance of virtuous behavior, the MG just released its statement on the Holbrook case. [20:58] Oh my, that was a rough read. [20:58] But as more students completed the DP, the more those other virtues were considered unnecessary... that just those beginner 9 were enough. [20:58] And eventually they were tossed, perpetuating the notion that there are only 9 and everything fits in them. [20:59] I found writing the 9 virtues essay the funnest part of the DP process so far. [20:59] I took my time and thought deeply about what to write. [21:00] I found them interesting enough, but not half as interesting as some of the book reports. [21:00] Beej, maybe you should express this idea in the DP study FB group? You may find some people interested in what you have to say about hte subject. [21:00] I hated the book reports. Love to read books just hate reporting on them [21:01] Not meaning to change the topic but I bet some people would like to see what you have to say about it. [21:01] The book reports were definitely interesting. I read a lot of books befoer settling on the ones to write about. [21:01] Oh you did Rovena? [21:01] I'm subversive on the DP FP group. I remind and explain without directly contradicting. [21:01] So did I, Beej. [21:02] I just havea hard time sitting down to read right now.... [21:02] Anyone going to WellSpring? [21:02] *** Star (Mibbit@sorcery-qltcil.res.rr.com) has joined #ADF [21:02] I'm one of the hosts. [21:02] Hello :) [21:02] We have a blind person in our grove and handouts are read aloud during meetings so everyone can participate. I've thought about offering a reading service for folks who can't read the books themselves. [21:03] Hi Star [21:03] Hola Star [21:03] Hi Star [21:03] Oak_Shaman, if you have any Wellspring-related questions, that's one of the reasons I'm on here. [21:03] Yay! I do have a few. [21:03] Wish [21:04] Wish I could go [21:04] We'd enjoy having you. [21:04] thexalon can we pay per day when if we can make it? [21:04] Will I need to buy firewood or are their fires going all the time? [21:04] There's a day rate of $20 per day, out by breakfast the next day. [21:05] Despite hosting Her at our most recent ritual, Dollar says that I have not sacrificed enough for her to bless with funds for such a venture. [21:05] There will be a social fire going at all times. [21:05] The weather was warm, if a bit wet last year. We'll see what we get this year. [21:06] Would I be able to use that fire to cook with? Say a hotdog? [21:07] Maybe, but there's also firewood on-site if you wanted to have your own campfire. You will need to bring a fire bowl if you want a separate fire though. [21:07] I will be watching the weather channel like a hawk that week! [21:07] [Owlhawk] snow [21:07] How about electric hook ups to recharge phones? [21:08] Plenty of those. The site is fairly civilized: Ian, Sue, and I all have houses on the property. [21:08] way cool. [21:09] I wish we could camp but after last year I'm not thinking it's good for our health [21:09] I am bringing a tent to use for the weekend but I plan to donate it to Stonecreek afterwards. [21:09] It was freely given to me. I want to pass it on to you guys. [21:09] Oh, and the shower water temps should be significantly better this year. [21:09] Stone Creed can keep extra tents, certainly. [21:10] Star, what exactly is your concern? The water? [21:10] Glad to see. [21:11] I think Stonecreek is a name I used in an old DND Campaign. LOL [21:11] My bad. [21:12] No biggie. [21:12] Any idea what Ian Corrigan's workshop will entail? [21:13] More the sky water and temperature. Star's concerned in part for my creakiness and our bad luck with tents. [21:13] Not yet. Ian being Ian, he tends to wait until the last minute for stuff like that. [21:14] The tent was flooded out last year and destroyed I was sick for a few days after we got back just isn't good for us anymore [21:14] too cold and wet but we are an hour out so I thought we could drive up for a day or two [21:14] Oh, and last year, part of the problem was that Ian asked for some rain to ensure that the showers had plenty of water. It's his fault! [21:15] How funny! [21:15] the showers were the best part besides the company :) [21:15] Be careful what you wish for .. [21:15] Weather magic has been started for warm and sunny. [21:15] I am planning to enter the story telliing competition. [21:16] is this for just crafting guild? because nathan is a great story teller I bet he'd like that [21:16] Storytelling is 1/3 of the competition. The other 2 parts are poetry and song. I encourage you to try all 3, even if you think you'll suck at them. [21:17] It's a bardic contest, not crafting. The Artisan's Guild has a separate contest. [21:17] Depends a great deal on work. I may be starting a new job that week, making days off impossible. [21:17] Is their a time I should meet for the poetry competition? Should I do multiple or one? [21:18] I assume that all participants should have their performances memorized? [21:18] The way the bardic competition works, all performers enter into all 3 events. [21:18] Memorization is certainly a help, but not strictly necessary. [21:18] In other words, in order to win, you should be good at all 3, but all performers have stronger and weaker areas. [21:19] And it's a friendly audience. Nobody gets gonged or booed of the stage or anything like that. [21:20] I'm finding that memorization actually makes my work better. Fascinating discovery. [21:20] Cool, I dig it. I would have to sing since I do not play an instrument. Any suggestions for songs that could be sung? [21:20] Though, unles things have changed, you may get ignored by folks too busy drinking to pay attention [21:20] lol, just like a real bard [21:21] The song round requires you to sing. Instruments are entirely optional, although some certainly use them. [21:21] though does't someone have to listen to judge it [21:21] beej, that sounds more like the Open Mic / Bardic circle than the competition [21:21] Actually, the competition rounds are during the day, and yes, a panel of 3 judges plus your fellow competitors plus interested audience pay pretty close attention. [21:21] would singing a Damh The Bard song be appropriate? [21:22] Sure. [21:22] Used to be the same thing, Nathan. Like I said, unless things have changed. [21:22] *** Erinp (Mibbit@sorcery-4phc3m.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #ADF [21:22] Hello Erin [21:22] Hey! Anyone still up? [21:22] How are you tonight? [21:22] Hi Rovena [21:22] I've not been able to attend a Wellspring since 2008 [21:22] Beej, Owl_Shaman Things have changed: There's also a bardic concert Saturday night you can participate in, whether or not you compete. [21:22] I might sing the Antlered Crown and Standing Stone then. [21:22] we're here hi Erin [21:22] Welcome Erin. Yes, we're still noisy tonight. [21:22] Pretty good, just watching the hockey game [21:22] Hi Erinp [21:23] Cool, I will be at the concert for sure. [21:23] Hi Beej [21:23] *** Star (Mibbit@sorcery-qltcil.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:23] Maple Leafs must not be playing 'cause we havben't had a score update [21:24] It's senators vs the rangers [21:24] Leafs are out I think [21:25] Okay [21:25] Sens are up 3-1 [21:25] [Owlhawk] ha ha [21:25] Shush you [21:26] Well thanks for your help Thexalon. Will be seeing you in a couple of weeks. Goodnight everyone. [21:26] Glad to hear the competition has been moved up to the day time where folks can actually be heard/seen. Though that would make for a much different audience to perform to. [21:26] G'night Oak [21:26] I'm staying up to watch, even dad's staying up [21:26] Goodnight! [21:26] G'night! [21:26] *** Oak_Shaman (Mibbit@sorcery-nude4r.client.mchsi.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:27] [Owlhawk] go rangers go! [21:27] *** Star (Mibbit@sorcery-qltcil.res.rr.com) has joined #ADF [21:27] Ha [21:27] WB Star [21:27] Odds are, we'll have to save up funds, stamina, and vacation days for Summerlands, when duty calls. Presuming we're not living in another region (or country) entirely by then. [21:27] ty [21:27] Hi star [21:28] hi sorry I needed to switch to my desktop [21:28] Gah. I am reminded how few festivals there are once you're outside of the Ohio valley area. [21:29] I'm getting my inventory ready for a show coming up in the next week so I am making some bows and needed the desktop spot to do it [21:29] So owlhawk, ate you against the Sens on principle, like it doesn't matter who they play? Or are you just a rangers fan? [21:29] Nathan, out of curiosity, where are you located? [21:30] *are [21:30] Erie, PA (Heartland region). With Whispering Lake Grove. [21:30] Well crap [21:31] Gotcha. A hop skip and jump from Wellspring and Summerland [21:31] yuppers [21:31] [Owlhawk] Doug. ED. Meaghan. [21:31] We're one of the hosts for Summerland. It's actually (in one of the areas) where I grew up. [21:31] *** Rovena (rovena@sorcery-oln.njf.45.67.IP) has quit IRC [Connection closed] [21:32] Sixth Night being the primary local host. [21:32] And they do a fine job of it. [21:32] *** Drum (Mibbit@sorcery-iuh9eo.buckeyecom.net) has joined #ADF [21:32] So it's still in sw Ohio. Yellow Springs or some such? (memory is bad) [21:32] Greetings [21:32] beej, whereabouts are you? [21:32] hi drum [21:32] *** Erinp (Mibbit@sorcery-4phc3m.dsl.bell.ca) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:33] las Vegas [21:33] [Owlhawk] 'ello [21:33] Hi Drum [21:33] Yellow Springs, Camp Clifton. Weird to go to a Pagan event at the same place I used to attend Boy Scout camps. [21:33] Hi Drum! [21:33] And thank you, Thexalon, by the way. [21:34] Ah. I did remember right. Nice to see it's still at the same place. [21:35] Hey, it's Drum [21:35] Hello! [21:35] sadly Ohio copied PA with the pain in the ass laws for the kitchen so that's going to be interesting [21:37] Yikes [21:37] How is everyone tonight? [21:37] [Owlhawk] good. yourself? [21:37] Good :) [21:38] [Owlhawk] Congratulations from Blondie and myself to you and Rhianon on your nuptials [21:38] Doing good. Good chat tonight. [21:38] Multitasking like usual, so threading good and less good. [21:38] [Owlhawk] and I know I spelled her name wrong.... [21:38] oh yeah I almost forgot about that Congratulations! [21:38] Oh, yeah! Congratulations! You just barely missed sharing an anniversary with Star and I. [21:39] :) [21:39] Thanks [21:39] Are you doing the kitchen at Summerlands? [21:39] Okay, as she reminds me, three weeks' difference, so not that close. [21:39] (Sorry coming in late) [21:40] lol isn't that how it's suppose to be the woman reminds the man of the anniversary lol [21:40] Us as in us, personally? Or WLG? Maybe on both counts. We're agitating Carrion by being unable to give a firm yes. Job hunting puts everything up in the air for us two. [21:42] Ok, just curious. Sorry for interrupting, folks [21:42] If the Kindred keep us in Erie with full-time jobs and vacation days... sure, no problem! [21:42] *** Raggiedmon (IceChat9@sorcery-5vpn3f.ipv6.telus.net) has quit IRC [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] [21:43] you aren't interrupting you are part of ADF and everyone has valid voices :) [21:47] *** Raggiedmon (IceChat9@sorcery-2m5tr4.abhsia.telus.net) has joined #ADF [21:47] Did we break the room lol? [21:47] Actually, to stir the pot and bring up the previous discussion, Drum, what's your thought on the Dedicant Virtues? Possible to misinterpret as dogma? [21:47] guess everyone getting tired [21:48] Still here, just not much to contribute to festival talk. [21:49] DP is very stressful for me but I'm working through that [21:50] Which part stresses you? [21:51] I'm terrible at mental discipline so meditation for me is hard to work with, I'm also doing my DP while I'm in school for Medical billing and coding so trying to juggle is hard [21:51] I also feel that my writing style is like listening to a child talk when I do my write ups [21:51] :s [21:51] Juggling with schooling is definitely difficult in the best of times. [21:52] But the DP is 8th grade level work. This is not a dissertation you're writing. [21:53] You have such a small number of words available (minimum and maximum limits) in which to say what you need to say, that there's no room for [21:53] fluff, or flowery phrases. [21:53] I have always hated writing essays no matter what the topic [21:53] That part I totally get. I have have writing fright. [21:53] Dammit. I'll have to edit out some flowers. [21:54] That is another problem though I don't get to the point my writing is long way around round about writing I am not good at writing I'm a artist not a writter [21:54] Have you tried something besides meditation for your 'mental discipline' section? [21:54] Like what? [21:54] Doing a morning prayer. [21:55] Doing an evening omen pull [21:55] I guess after coffee and washing up I could... I'm a scatter brain more often then not [21:55] Taking ten minutes each day during your lunch break to watch the clouds form into figures. [21:56] maybe we'll have to see if I can get out of the city because there isn't really any clean and nice places to do that persay [21:56] Dirty clouds? [21:56] dog poo in the grass trees and power lines blocking the view [21:57] It's hard here, we only get clouds about 10-20 days out of the year. [21:57] I'm so nervous to move away if nathan gets a job outside of erie because I've been here all my life I don't want to live in a place where whether is predictable [21:57] Those are good suggestions, Beej [21:58] LOL I never said our weather was predictable. Only that it was not cloudy! [21:59] if there are only clouds 20 days out of the year what else is there hot ashes falling from the sky? [21:59] lol that's an ESO game joke btw [21:59] We get crazy wind storms.... like a light breeze is in the 20mph range. Storms are usually 35mph with gusts in the 50s. [21:59] ooo I like the sound of that [21:59] Makes having fires for rituals a challenge, lemme tell you. [22:00] And we get heat. Lots of heat. [22:00] I didn't think about that crumbs I like fire. I like snow and cold as much as I like heat [22:00] But then winter comes and we wonder if it will be below freezing at night. [22:00] that's desert weather right? [22:00] No snow. (City shut down 8 years ago because of a freak snow storm that dropped 8 inches. lol) [22:01] only 8 inches... [22:01] Well, Las Vegas desert weather. AZ deserts get more rain than we do. [22:01] I'm sorry lol [22:02] Nah. I thought it was hilarious. I'd just moved here 2 weeks before that storm from upstate NY. [22:02] Well, weather at Tredara has been continuous rain for about a week, followed by continuous sun for about a week. If this cycle continues, Wellspring will fall on a sunny week. [22:02] that's good to hear but we'll still be knee deep in mud Thexalon [22:02] Wellspring was always wet. So I'm not surprised [22:02] and we've got the same pattern here [22:02] yeah well you name it after a well and what does wells hold and what fills those wells [22:03] do* [22:03] [Owlhawk] I'll b eimpressed if you dont get sonw [22:03] [Owlhawk] snow [22:03] I've had some really dry Wellsprings, and really wet Summerlands. [22:04] beej, you mentioned 07-08... was that the October Surprise, Arborgeddon? [22:05] Umm... no. I didn'[t arrive here until Thanksgiving of 08. In the first week of December we got hit with that crazy storm [22:06] Ah, you mentioned upstate NY, so I wondered. [22:06] Re-parsed the sentence, figured out what you meant. [22:06] Oh. Hmm. I know there was snow on the ground when I left in Nov. [22:06] *** Ashtore (Mibbit@sorcery-46r4fd.ca.comcast.net) has joined #ADF [22:07] HI Ashtore [22:07] hello! [22:07] Hey Ashtore! [22:07] I was living in Corning at the time. [22:08] Actually, just checked, Arborgeddon was Oct 2006. We got buried in Buffalo. Barely missed a tree through our trailer; it landed next door instead. [22:08] Hi, Ashtore! [22:08] Hi! [22:08] Ah... Yeah, I probably worked through that. I remember some really heavy snow years while I was in NY [22:09] [Owlhawk] define heavy snow... [22:10] Didn't Buffalo get like 10 feet around that time? [22:10] Trees coming down because they hadn't lost their leaves yet... [22:11] [Owlhawk] my area has, on occasion, lost houses to snow banks [22:12] Owl, in my town now, heavy snow is *any* snow! [22:12] lol. [22:12] [Owlhawk] bloody sun worshippers!] [22:12] Not sure the exact depth. I know where we were, near the canal, had drifts over 5-6 feet. [22:12] Sun dodgers! [22:13] those are anthills in Owlhawk's part of the world [22:13] [Owlhawk] yawn* I've seen snow banks that were taller then the hydro poles..... a 6 ft snow drift , is barely noticed here [22:14] In WNY, it's not so much the total fall as the speed. Lightning snow. Sometimes with actual lightning. [22:14] oh Beej back a couple of years I use to do a morning music session I could try that up again I'd put on a song list songs Like Prophecy song by Joanne Shenandoah and to those who dream and also Freya by Kellianna I did that before work so I probably pick that back up [22:14] thanks for the idea [22:14] [Owlhawk] jI'm 4 or 5 hours north of Buffalo... [22:15] That sounds like it would be a good start [22:15] Just take 4-10 minutes to really listen to one or two songs. [22:16] I sing along with them it always made me feel good [22:16] :D [22:16] Like really get into the song.. how it flows around you, how the words feel... what images they inspire. [22:16] Well, I'm calling it a night. Enjoy yourselves, everyone! [22:16] G'night Thexalon [22:16] *** Thexalon (Mibbit@sorcery-a890t0.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [22:16] Night, Thex! [22:17] night! [22:17] night thexalon [22:17] Do the same couple each day, or explore different ones and how they affect you. [22:17] The key is intention. [22:18] And I hate that phrase generally. [22:18] But you have to be intentional.. this is discipline, after all. [22:19] we are now reminded to be aware of our place upon this earth, and to forfill our obligations to our selves, our family, nation, the natural world and to the creator, the words say we are to awaken stand up be counted, for we are being recognized in the spirit world [22:19] Those are the words of the prophecy song I love so much btw [22:19] perfect... mindfulness right in the song! [22:19] discipline is so hard for me lol [22:20] yup [22:20] [Owlhawk] which creator? this sounds far too close to christian belief [22:20] hard for all of us. [22:20] it's a native american song [22:20] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb0E7IIvLDY&list=PLrprx_o_uVXI4gLvKSy3JPYBD39X3iznj [22:21] it sounds like an interesting song..thanks for the link [22:21] if you are curious but see that is why I paired it with Freya and a few other songs, like I will be gentle with myself [22:21] your welcome ;) [22:21] [Owlhawk] and? what does that have to do with anything? Native American beliefs have been poisoned by Catholicism for centuries [22:23] ...they have a creator spirit as I am aware...and while it does kind of look like it at first glance its actually not really a very christian idea. more gnostic to my understanding. [22:23] I was raised in a seventh day adventist family, while I get that it is similar or possibly tainted it's like beej said it's intent I don't intend it to be christian and I focus on the words and apply them to my life [22:24] The Greeks had a creator deity pre-Christian. Lots of cultures do. [22:24] Actually, now that I think on it...the Native american creator sounds more like the Awen to me....have to look into that.... [22:25] But if the song serves to give you focus, I see no reason to stress about some of the words. Maybe even explore the words later. [22:25] [Owlhawk] beej, please tell me who the Hellenic creator deity was? [22:25] Really? Prometheus. [22:25] Or do you want the protodeity? [22:25] [Owlhawk] nope. he gave humanity fire. [22:26] Nope read it again. He created humanity. And then gave fire. [22:26] wasn't it gaia? or magna mater...? not really my forte but it sounds right. [22:26] [Owlhawk] definitly not a creator diety [22:26] PROMETHEUS was the Titan god of forethought and crafty counsel who was given the task of moulding mankind out of clay. [22:26] [Owlhawk] nope [22:27] [Owlhawk] that's not a creator diety. he didnt' create the universe. [22:27] Ovid, Metamorphoses 1. 363 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) : [22:27] "[Deukalion (Deucalion) laments after the Great Deluge has wiped out all of mankind:] ‘O for my father's [Prometheus'] magic to restore mankind again and in the moulded clay breathe life and so repopulate the world!’" [22:27] all life came from her in the beginning....? [22:27] [Owlhawk] and there's more then one myth on the creation of humanity in Hellenic [22:28] Callimachus, Iambi Fragments 1 & 8 (trans. Trypanis) (Greek poet C3rd B.C.) : [22:28] "It was that year when the winged fowl and the dweller in the sea and the four-footed creature talked even as the clay of Prometheus . . . Zeus the just, dispensing injustice, he robbed four-footed things of speech." [22:29] But the point being, "the creator" in a NA context could have many meanings, especially depending on which culture you're referencing. [22:29] I figure 3rd C BC is pre Christian enough [22:29] :) [22:29] Well, you want the creator of the universe.. that would be proto deity. Sorry. That would be Eros [22:30] I used the creator when I left Christianity to include all and any that were listening even before I knew there were others [22:30] [Owlhawk] the question, NA wise, is at what point did a 'Creator: enter NA mythos? [22:30] [Owlhawk] Again, beej, there are more then one Hellenic creation myths [22:30] For without love that is Eros, Ouranos and Gaia would not have created anything [22:31] Yup. Didn't I say the Greeks had a creator? [22:31] well however you look at it if it works for me isn't that good enough? [22:31] [Owlhawk] gaea giving birth is not a creation myth, it's a life being born myth. I see a difference between those two [22:32] Owlhawk, if you're looking for a pre-European-invasion source, that might be difficult, for any of the native cultural myths, just because of the nature of storytelling. [22:32] I think it's good enough Star [22:32] [Owlhawk] At what point should I mention that I've studied Hellenic beliefs? [22:33] Yeah, so have I. Go on. [22:33] But that also doesn't mean a given culture can't have a Creator concept that *isn't* Christian-influenced. Probably not conclusively provable either way. [22:33] [Owlhawk] hence the polite discussin you and I are having, versus the challenge by Nathan [22:34] I'm sorry? [22:34] I want to get this straight, though. because it was birthed, it wasn't created. [22:35] [Owlhawk] the Creator concept is Christian in it's very essence. It is a a Christian idea, not a pagan one] [22:35] Because Prometheus only created man, he is a creator either. [22:35] Christianity is a pagan concept. [22:35] [Owlhawk] creation implies an all powerful deity creating and over seeing everyting [22:35] There is nothing in Christianity that I haven't found in lore centuries older than Christianity [22:36] [Owlhawk] what is the source of that lore? I find that very suspicious [22:37] Not the flood, not the creation of man, not the creation of the universe. The Hebrews from whom the early Christians took their lore stole/absorbed it from the many cultures they encountered during their travels. [22:37] The tablets from mesopotamia [22:37] Which source do you mean? [22:38] [Owlhawk] and where in any of that is a single creator, all powerful and all knowing mentioned? [22:38] That was definitely the Mesopotamian stuff, along with the those late Roman cults that they stole from [22:39] [Owlhawk] uhmmmmm....not seeing that [22:40] Stand by, need to refer to actual books [22:41] [Owlhawk] beej, save it for next time. I need to get to bed soon. [22:42] I'm only seeing reference to the assumption that the gods already existed....I don't really know if there was an actual creation myth for the universe itself. [22:44] Well I'm sorry it offended you because that what it comes across as in your comments but creator doesn't imply a being that created everything it only generalized creator and that could be anything that's just me view though [22:45] my* [22:45] Not going to find an omnipotent creator, but there are creator myths. The omniscience is a very very recent addition to the story and mostly due to bad translations. but I will find the other creation myth. [22:46] [Owlhawk] Yes, creator in western culture does imply an all powerful, all knowing Creator God. [22:46] [Owlhawk] Yes beej there are two Hellenic creation myths that I am aware of. [22:46] In modern Western, sure. [22:47] in jewish mythos yes, the creator god or jehovah was omnipotent and omnipresent. [22:47] In order to compete with other religions, they had to demonstrate that there could be no other religino. It's a really good ttactic for its purpose. But even the bible does not dispute the existence of othe deities. [22:48] [Owlhawk] I am going to bed very shortly. I will leave my IRC open for logging , but I will not be here. have a good night all. oood conversation. If we can't discuss topics like this politely, as we have been doing, then there would be a definite problem. [22:48] If Jehovah was omnipresent, he would not have had to wait for moses to come down from the nmountain to discover that his chosen people had taken to worshiping other gods in Moses' absence. [22:48] [Owlhawk] thank you all for being so polite and reasonable on a difficult topic. [22:48] G'night owl [22:48] [Owlhawk] good night [22:48] goodnight [22:49] night! [22:50] Anyway [22:50] Well that discussion wont stop me from using the music anyway [22:52] Like I said, if it gets you into a mindful place, that's the goal. [22:53] yup [22:53] Well, the final goal is to get your mind to be controllable. [22:54] In martial arts, we practice in a way that the mind is trained at the same time as the body. [22:54] lol that will be like herding cats for me but I'll try [22:54] As far as I am aware, beej, Jehovah was aware. It was moses who destroyed the tablet out of anger. Moses had a temper problem and I can't help but see jehovah rolling his eyes or facepalming. he hadn't even finished wring the law and they were disobeying it....lol. [22:54] Then, when you need it, the mind gets to its place immediately when needed. Likewise for this practice and ritual. [22:54] As far as the song goes, whatever floats your boat! [22:55] Practice the song so that eventually, when you need to get your mind into the mindful place for a ritual, all you need to do is think of that song,. [22:55] I type slow...sry. [22:55] The Jews I know do not attribute omniscience to their deity. They can argue, and even win arguments with their deity. [22:56] Their deity can win contexts against other deities, but does not really claim omnipotence, eitehr. [22:56] my knowledge is limited....you probably know better than I. [22:56] I do so enjoy when the rabbi's come to Interfaith events, becuse they bring a breath of fresh air untaininted by Christian drift [22:56] Actually I used that song when I was getting ready to read tarot originally so it may still work [22:57] yes, same kind of thing! [22:57] cool [22:57] So you can practice for the same sort of goal. [22:57] Er... win contests, not contexts. Oi! [22:58] got it...lol! [22:58] Star, remember to take a few moments to write down what you litsened to, how long and any quick thoughts you have. [22:58] Especially if you change songs from time to time. [22:59] When you have your 5 months, go back through your notes and see if you notice any patterns. Feelings, etc [22:59] this may sound stupid but was the original topic, meditation? I missed the beginning so I was a little curious [22:59] This current original topic, yes. [22:59] Oy there is that damn writing again lol but I'll do it. It's times like this that I'm glad I didn't oath to be done in a year [22:59] Star was commenting on her challenges for the Dp [22:59] this* [23:00] ok [23:00] Just jot.... "Listened 5 minutes to song suchnsuch. Ugh! I can't believe Im doing this again" [23:00] lol [23:00] just finished that portion of the DP, I don't envy you...it was hard. [23:01] "Listened to song suchnsuch 2 twice... really got into it today. Yesterday sucked." [23:02] "switched to suchnso today. It doesn't ring for me like suchnsuch" [23:02] I got my write up down for the Virtues and turned in, thankfully our local grove decided to do Sunday discussion groups to talk about what we did and such like we pick a deity to research and then get back together and discuss it [23:02] Excellent! We do Thursday night discussions for our grove. It helps to be able to talk to people [23:02] sounds cool, might bring that up next meeting. [23:03] Virtue discussion s are our rowdiest. [23:04] well carrion is our senior druid so that helps too... [23:04] She's a very smart lady [23:04] and bonus for her being an ADF priest... all offical and stuff [23:05] I get so frustrated you'd think after ten years of attending ADF ritual I'd know something I feel like I don't know a dang thing. yup [23:05] Aww... bet you know more than you think [23:06] Ash, I'm sure I asked, but where are you again? [23:08] I don't believe I do but we'll see [23:08] You weren't on earlier Star. But, I'm working on a sort of Druid's Primer based on the DP. Really simple stuff like connect he concepts with lines... circle the words, fill in the blank with one word. [23:08] I think I'm going to officially step out to finish up that writing before bed. Night, all! [23:08] G'nght Nathan [23:09] *** NathanLarge (Mibbit@sorcery-qltcil.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [23:09] cool [23:10] California. [23:10] night nathan[! [23:11] I'll tell him you said good night :) [23:11] Oh, right. My neck of the woods... ish [23:11] :) yeah...ish. lol. [23:11] I was in California in February for pantheacon [23:12] Well, I mean, compared to Erie, PA, you're just up the road a piece [23:12] were you? I was as well...true beej. [23:12] Yup I had a great time strange for me because I'm use to lots of hugs and such and I only got a few but new faces kind of feel that way [23:13] Night Ashtore - keep up the great work [23:14] I never made it Pantheacon [23:14] It's always so expensive when you consider the whole package [23:15] night drum! [23:15] yeah...I know....hotel and travel is expensive. [23:16] Plus food. Yep [23:16] 8winds is gonna be "fun" carpooling with a friend. [23:16] That's a challenge.... way too far for me to drive again. And Marv won't go up there anymore [23:16] My partner [23:17] we used the air bnb instead of staying at the hotel [23:17] totally understand, beej. [23:18] air bnb can be a good alternative. Last time I just found campgrounds along the way....20 buck a night. [23:18] Maybe the next time it comes down to the Lake Tahoe area, I can talk the grove into going up. [23:19] if I still have a cabin up there you guys are always welcome. :D [23:19] :) [23:19] *** Drum (Mibbit@sorcery-iuh9eo.buckeyecom.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [23:19] We've never had a proper, non worship-laden trip to Tahoe [23:20] Watched a thing on NV the other day on PBS, and was reminded that Tahoe was a camping option. [23:21] how long a trip is it? [23:21] (This American SIG email just keeps getting longer!!!) [23:22] sorry guys my brain is calling for a cease for the night so I'm going to log off have a good one nice chatting ! :) [23:23] 7-8 hours to Glenbrook on the east side of tahoe [23:23] G'night Star! Good luck with the song practice [23:24] thanks :) [23:24] *** Star (Mibbit@sorcery-qltcil.res.rr.com) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [23:25] A bit of a trip before pitching the tent, still... [23:28] What do you make of this comment: "I guess I would just be wary of propagating myth and ritual [23:28] in a way that re-enforces commercialization in its worst aspects."? [23:28] I've been trying to figure out what they mean all night. [00:01] hmmmm....... [00:02] the first thing that comes to mind is...being careful of what the public sees of what you are doing as a pagan or even a person really.... [00:03] because if you are not, you are only reinforcing stereotypes. [00:05] ok..... I suppose. [00:09] Completely separate note.... when was your next deadline? Did I miss it? [01:37] *** beej (beej@sorcery-tpol94.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) has quit IRC [Quit: Leaving] [03:08] you did...may 5th was the deadline for this on....sry distracted by other things.....gtg...but next episode is for Midsummer if you wanted to submit for that.....ttyl Night! [03:08] *** Ashtore (Mibbit@sorcery-46r4fd.ca.comcast.net) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] *** Closed channel log for #ADF at 2017-05-11 10:58:08 AM *** Opened channel log for #ADF at 2017-05-16 7:27:23 PM [19:27] *** Owlhawk (Owlhawk@sorcery-2bv46v.cable.rogers.com) has joined #ADF [19:27] *** ChanServ has changed the topic on #ADF to "Welcome to the chat for Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship (ADF). Find out more about us at http://www.adf.org" [19:27] *** Mode change [+r] on #ADF by ChanServ [19:44] *** BridgetteAdkins (Mibbit@sorcery-nvtphc.res.bhn.net) has joined #ADF *** Closed channel log for #ADF at 2017-05-16 7:53:48 PM