*** Opened channel log for #adf at 8/18/2015 6:51:55 PM [18:51] *** Owlhawk (Owlhawk@cf983e33.cpe.net.cable.f33844f1.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [18:51] *** Topic is: Welcome to the chat for Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship (ADF). Find out more about us at http://www.adf.org [18:51] *** Topic set by ChanServ!services@services.sorcery.net on Tue Aug 18 1:02 PM [18:51] =NickServ= This nickname is registered and protected. If it is your [18:51] =NickServ= nick, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY password. Otherwise, [18:51] =NickServ= please choose a different nick. [18:51] =NickServ= If you do not change within 1 minute, I will change your nick. [18:51] =NickServ= Password accepted - you are now recognized. [18:51] *** Mode change [+o Owlhawk] on #adf by ChanServ [19:22] *** thehouseofthot (Mibbit@c2b935fa.dsl.ccd2c5b3.pt.hmsk) has joined #adf [19:22] Good evening everyone [19:22] [Owlhawk] hello [19:22] I have just heard about these online chats on ADF [19:22] Maybe I am a bit too late [19:23] [Owlhawk] nah, about 40 mins eaqrly [19:23] [Owlhawk] early [19:23] oh [19:23] You see, I am in Portugal, so I'm not entirely aware of the timezone difference [19:23] [Owlhawk] that would definitely do it [19:24] [Owlhawk] There's also a European chat Sunday at 2pm EST. [19:25] Since I'm a freelancer, I am fine with late night events; is the European chat room usually buzzing as well? [19:26] [Owlhawk] I often forget to log into it, but the ones i've made it too have been interesting. [19:27] [Owlhawk] some nights are busier then others [19:28] Alright then [19:30] I am a solitary practitioner, currently studying with OBOD but been reading material recommended at adf.org; sort of a recent awakening since I started working with Manannan Mac Lir. Is that alright or should I be on a more advanced state to participate in this kind of conversations? [19:31] [Owlhawk] nah, this is an open chat. The advanced study one is a different night....and i've been too busy this summer to continue it anyway [19:31] [Owlhawk] we welcome beginner type questions [19:32] I've been considering joining ADF, altough I am still pondering if and how [19:33] [Owlhawk] how? you can fill out the paperwork on the website and send it in. I mail a money order with mine for the membership fee. never had an issue [19:35] Yeah, I already read up on the bureaucracy bits. It's just that I am still pondering if I should start yet another study course or do things one step at a time. I am a too curious of a person to stick to be told to stick to only one task, and actually I guess the fact I am so chaotic in my interests is what got me where I am in the first place [19:35] [Owlhawk] well that's a different question then [19:36] that's the "how" I was referring to [19:37] [Owlhawk] you're the one that needs to decide that one [19:38] Like most I was brought up a Christian, developed this deep sense that I should dedicate my life to the service of the Divine; years later and several faith crisis in between I am finally coming to terms with the fact the problem wasn't mine but the kind of gods I was exposed to. Fast forward and here I am. Of course it is up to me to decide. [19:39] I just need to expose myself to things, look around, be informed [19:39] or inform myself [19:40] [Owlhawk] ask Manannan [19:40] *** SaraKBlackwelder (Mibbit@66fa1b5b.tampfl.fios.36f5c1fe.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [19:40] [Owlhawk] hi Sara [19:40] I have; it's the first time I have been called by a god outside of my cultural background [19:40] hi! [19:40] hi Sara [19:40] *** Rovena (Mibbit@6ca5ed5e.6ca5f0a0.72.170.imsk) has joined #adf [19:41] *** Mode change [+o Rovena] on #adf by ChanServ [19:41] what's going on with everyone tonight? [19:41] Dealing with kidney stones [19:41] [Owlhawk] how's that going Rovena? [19:42] Get x-rays in the AM to see if a sonic blast will be required. [19:42] [Owlhawk] good luck with it then [19:42] :( oof....no fun [19:42] Thanks [19:43] I hope you feel better soon [19:43] I am in for a lecture by the specialist. No matter how much water you drank, if you got a stone it wasn't enough and you should do better [19:43] [Owlhawk] I remember the wife passing one. she was not pleasant for a wee bit of time... [19:43] :( [19:43] This too shall pass. [19:44] DOing better than last Tues saw doctor at 12:30 and was in hospital by 2 [19:45] Regardless of AM I will have to back in hospital to get the stent romved [19:46] I'm sorry you are going through that Rovena [19:46] So how is everyone? Better I hope [19:47] [Owlhawk] going to a local festival this weekend that I only became aware of recently. we'll see how it goes [19:47] I am alright, just been busy and tired, and a bit sad alas...too many loses this summer [19:48] Too true [19:49] Good luck with that. Hope it is a good one [19:50] [Owlhawk] it sounds promising. [19:51] [Owlhawk] sorry it's been such a rough summer Sara [19:53] me too alas. just too many good people lost [19:53] stupid cancer [19:57] *** RobHenderson (Mibbit@5a79652d.hsd1.mi.5aa6454b.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [19:58] * RobHenderson wonders if it's House of Thought or House of Thoth [19:58] Don't know [19:58] It is a play on words [19:58] *** CarrionMann (Mibbit@4c4ab62b.dynamic.9dcf6d32.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [19:59] Hello Carrion [19:59] Hi Rovena and all. [19:59] I am a programmer and I often deal with recursive acronyms [19:59] House of T Hot? Like T Pain? [19:59] Ah, gotcha. [19:59] Cool [19:59] so THOT means The House of THOT, and THOT could be a play on Thought, the god Thoth, etc. [20:00] Like Douglas Hofstadter's six word autobiography: "I'm So Meta, Even This Acronym" [20:00] [Owlhawk] hello [20:00] Hello [20:01] hi all who I haven't greeted [20:01] It has been a while since I have been able to stop by a chat, so I thought tonight might be a good night to pop in and out. [20:01] hi Carrion [20:02] and hi Rob [20:02] Hi! [20:06] May we got quiet [20:07] Topics help. >8) [20:08] and I got distracted by someone wanting to work on letters :) [20:08] Can't discourage young learners [20:08] Anyone got a topic? [20:11] Apparently not. [20:11] what are folks working on? [20:11] History lesson for class Saturday [20:13] [Owlhawk] starting to consider what meads I'll make for KG next summer. [20:13] Got writing done. should be working on my Android app for the Greek Alphabet Oracle. [20:13] [Owlhawk] yes, you should. and then let some of us test it for you.... [20:13] [Owlhawk] :D [20:14] Has anyone here been through the process of having been brought up in a Judeo-Christian context, turned atheist and became a polytheist by an entirely surprising twist of fate? [20:14] I'm just reviewing some work myself [20:14] Good idea for an app [20:14] *** BonnieCyr (Mibbit@f15b163b.dhcp.nwtn.ct.4e125616.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [20:14] bonnie!! [20:14] Hello Bonnie [20:14] WHERE?! [20:14] * BonnieCyr looks around. [20:14] indeed, great idea for an app [20:14] hi Bonnie [20:15] [Owlhawk] No, I never made it to atheist. [20:15] I never was atheist, but did have the background [20:15] [Owlhawk] hello bonnie [20:15] I woudn't call it surprising, but that has vague similarities to me. I was never very Catholic or very atheist, though. [20:15] @the house of thot I wasn't but it is a common route [20:15] I happened to be quite militant no matter what my path was [20:16] Always a major shake up when something changes [20:17] I guess I was a little militant when i first became a Pagan, but I'm too old and lazy to be that now. Or too wise. [20:17] [Owlhawk] or all three. and you're not alone there Rob [20:18] *** Grollwynn (Mibbit@2830a876.113.22.98.dynamic.ip.52c9489d.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [20:19] I did more of an easing out of what I was, had to justify the change to myself for a while to help me to explain to my family [20:19] Am I late? [20:19] never, Grollwynn! [20:19] nope! hi! [20:19] :] [20:19] hi Grollwynn [20:19] Never! [20:20] With me it's always been an occasion of self-doubt, and increasingly so in each shift [20:20] I've found that getting older makes it easier to live with self-doubt. [20:21] Self doubt can be healthy [20:22] In my case it still tends to bring choice paralysis with it [20:24] right there with you <3 [20:24] I'm reminded of a Batman story where therapists at Arkham replace Two-Face's coin with a dice and he gets choice paralysis. [20:24] There next step was to teach him the I Ching. Even Batman thought that was too cruel. [20:24] [Owlhawk] lol [20:25] *** TrentDirenna (Mibbit@37bcff35.dhcp.trlk.ca.4e125616.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [20:25] I am always at a loss with DC or Marvel references [20:25] hi everyone [20:26] *** yglauca (Mibbit@6ca5ecc0.6ca5ed7b.140.232.imsk) has joined #adf [20:26] Best to just nod and smile, then. [20:26] [Owlhawk] hello [20:26] Hi Trent! [20:26] I prefer penguins. Smile and wave [20:26] hi Trent [20:26] The crazy comic book reading Priest will eventually move on to other analogies. [20:27] Hello Trent [20:27] Treeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnnttttttt [20:28] hi bonnie :) [20:28] I couldn't give much more advice without knowing details, but I do try to live my life by the principle that doing anything is usually better than doing nothing. [20:29] Eventually that is what I end up doing [20:29] Still on the "I hope the fact everything I do fails adds up to something greater" stage of denial [20:30] Great people fail constantly, it's what they learn from the failure that ends up making them great. [20:31] Now I'm thinking of an episode of "Sports Night", but if you don't know comics, what are the odds you'll know a 90s dramedy? [20:31] I don't know comics and I'm Portuguese [20:32] [Owlhawk] I lived through the 90's and I didn't catch that reference Rob [20:32] i don't know sports night...i do know (some) comics though :-p [20:32] Ah, neat! And egads, it's what, 1:30 in the morning there? [20:32] yes it is [20:32] That's dedication. [20:33] and I am getting tired now! [20:34] 830 my time [20:34] 2030 to be picky. >8) [20:34] true....not everyone knows that though Rob! [20:34] ;) [20:35] More seriously, do you have (or want) a relstionship with the gods and spirits where they would advise you on stuff? [20:35] I prefer military time so much clearer [20:35] *** Dale (dale@5cef385d.new.res.14056255.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [20:35] *** Grollwynn (Mibbit@2830a876.113.22.98.dynamic.ip.52c9489d.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [20:36] For a while I was the kind of person that would see the gods as archetypes. Recently I think Manannan Mac Lir has been messing me up in a good way [20:37] Aaand it has forced me to change perspective on quite a few things [20:37] *** yglauca (Mibbit@6ca5ecc0.6ca5ed7b.140.232.imsk) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [20:38] I've been doing meditative and visualization work for some time now and in the end of the day no one can be really sure whether the insights, visions, messages one gets are 100% "true", I wonder they are "true" enough for each person only [20:38] I don't think many members of ADF stick with the "only archetypes" concept. Gods know I don't. [20:38] I look at my relationships with Gods and Spirits very much like I look at my relationships with other humans. There are some I want a relationship with and others I do not. [20:38] But this feel different [20:38] feels* [20:39] I am not a member of ADF... yet [20:39] I think most of us feel that way. I have zero interest in telling other people that what their gods told them is wrong. [20:39] Which is why I started approaching the website, some materials, and stumbled upon this chat room [20:39] You lucked out in getting here for the weekly chat, then! [20:39] I have long term relationships with some Gods and Spirits that have been exceptionally helpful to my navigating this journey we call life. [20:40] Either that or synchronicity does indeed happen [20:40] There have also been others over the years that have drifted away, much like our human relationships. [20:41] As for the archetypes concept, I think many come to ADF with that concept at the forefront of their spirituality; however, in time and with experience that seems to change for many. [20:41] Yes, I understand [20:42] I am approaching ADF because that concept doesn't seem to work for me anymore, however I am still figuring things out [20:42] *** yglauca (Mibbit@6ca5ecc0.6ca5ed7b.140.232.imsk) has joined #adf [20:42] since it clashes with pretty much everything else I've been doing so far, it seems. Which could be a positive thing, of course [20:42] I ponder a lot [20:42] I've been in ADF for nineteen years and I'm still learning things. >8) [20:43] Pondering means you are thinking not being spoon fed [20:43] I think we have a good way of practicing and getting things done, I know it doesn't work for everyone but it certainly had for me. [20:43] It is really about how you experience relationships with the Gods and Spirits. For me the "only archetypes" concept was very superficial and not nearly intimate enough for the work I wanted to be doing. [20:44] I agree Rob. [20:45] [Owlhawk] I agree with both Rob and Carrion. The archetype view never sat well with me. Too somethng.... [20:45] I totally get what you're saying, Carrion. It's just that there is an entirely different kind of work I wasn't even aware I wanted to do, not in a Pagan framework at least, and yet has been creeping up with great insistence [20:45] and so now They are not archetypes anymore for me either, I guess [20:46] The beauty of this is that it does work for many and it is certainly okay if it doesn't work for others. I like the lack of rigidness and of different ways of looking at things. Diversity of opinion is not a bad thing at all. Most often if you are open enough it will cause growth in understanding. [20:46] What kind of work? [20:47] If you don't mind me asking? [20:47] Well, the devotional kind, if that is the right way to put it [20:47] *** Dale (dale@5cef385d.new.res.14056255.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] [20:48] You mean where you are devoted in your practice to a particular being or group of beings? [20:48] I still associate devotion, being in relationships with actual superior Beings to a quite traumatic past, and therefore for some years I assumed I was done with that kind of work, and proceeded otherwise with my spiritual past [20:49] At most I had this feeling of reverence to a larger Unknown Intelligence, insert Gnostic references at will [20:49] But recently [20:49] i don't know what i think about "archtypes" [20:50] *** Dale (dale@5cef385d.new.res.14056255.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [20:50] While approaching Celtic culture through one strand of my personal path, revival Druidry via OBOD, I think there has been indeed some intense attempts of establishing contact from a certain Being [20:51] and it still confuses me because I need to untangle so much crap in order to deal with it; because all of a sudden I do want to be in a relationship with gods again [20:52] And that array of mixed feelings pretty much sums it up for me right now, I guess [20:52] Well Trent and in some respects I agree with you...because there are most certainly beings that fulfill certain roles within Indo-European cultures. For example, there are 'thunder Gods', 'warrior and war Gods', sovereignty and land Goddesses, who have very similar characteristics in IE cultures. [20:53] [Owlhawk] .Then start the relationship, and sort the shit out along the way. just like the rest of us. [20:54] I guess it is that, then [20:54] but are these roles or functions fulfilled by different individual Gods and Goddess who give there unique characteristics to the role or are they the same being perceived differently in a different cultural context? [20:54] [Owlhawk] Or are both sides of that true Carrion? At the samew time [20:55] The difference for me with sorting this out and forming my own opinion was exactly what Owlhawk said...practice and building working relationships. [20:56] And I guess the answer to your question Owlhawk is that they could be I suppose, but I ask my self...is it really a deal breaker if one, the other or both are true...for me its not. [20:56] *** Dale (dale@5cef385d.new.res.14056255.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] [20:56] *** Dale (dale@5cef385d.new.res.14056255.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [20:56] *** Dale (dale@5cef385d.new.res.14056255.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Client Quit] [20:56] i don't really know...despite doing various forms of paganism for 15 years, my experience with anything that could be called "spiritual" is basically all theoretical, heh [20:57] [Owlhawk] no, but it's an interesting thing to ponder. I suspect we impose human limitations far too often on non human beings [20:57] Some day some experience or relationship might make me change how I see this whole thing and that is okay to. It is really to me about always learning and growing. [20:59] As someone said earlier...I believe Rob...making a mistake, taking a chance and being wrong are really okay and the way great people become great. [20:59] Yep, that was me. >8) [21:01] If you never take a chance or risk anything... to me... it limits the possibilities that some magnificent and magical could happen. [21:01] True... [21:01] The real magic always happens outside your comfort zone. [21:02] Relationships...though...scare people...for good reason and lots of bad life examples we can come up with to justify not starting a new one, especially with an Otherworldly being. [21:03] I haven't dated anyone for nine years, so I'm no exception there. [21:03] It has been my experience that my relationships with fellow humans have by far and large been scarier than those I have had and do have with otherworldly beings. [21:03] [Owlhawk] definitely [21:04] *** BonnieCyr (Mibbit@f15b163b.dhcp.nwtn.ct.4e125616.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:05] Well Rob, I haven't dated in 20...so talk about scary...lol and I have been single for 3 years now...what does that tell ya. Your not alone. [21:06] If we don't count my fiancee as dating someone, then it's been 15 for me. Yikes. [21:06] We might be getting old Rob...lol [21:07] No..lets just go with 'wiser' it sounds better. [21:07] I try not to think about it, but it never works. [21:07] [Owlhawk] getting old beats the alternative [21:07] So Otherworldy beings in monotheist contexts tend to come across as especially aggressive mostly because of institution happens or deities like Yahweh do have a sort of personality that people would do better to avoid? Not to be flippant [21:07] *because institution [21:08] Not flippant at all, I don't think. [21:09] *** yglauca (Mibbit@6ca5ecc0.6ca5ed7b.140.232.imsk) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:09] A deity that thinks it's the only one is likely to expect a very different kind of relationship than one that doesn't. [21:10] oh my! I have enjoyed the conversation tonight....but it's bedtime. have a great night all! [21:10] Night! [21:10] [Owlhawk] good night Sara [21:10] I'm getting a parallel between relationships with deities and the dynamics between monogamy as a dominant convention, with all the associated baggage we well know about, and polyamory [21:10] night, Sara [21:11] *** SaraKBlackwelder (Mibbit@66fa1b5b.tampfl.fios.36f5c1fe.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:11] But does Yahweh really believe he is the only one or does he just require his followers to have no one gods befroe him [21:11] Very much so, though many of us are monagamous and still polytheist. [21:11] That's been argued for millennia, Rowena. >8) [21:11] *** RowanRavenhawk (Mibbit@bc242892.hsd1.va.5aa6454b.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [21:11] *** yglauca (Mibbit@6ca5ecc0.6ca5ed7b.140.232.imsk) has joined #adf [21:11] I see it as more like relationships with both a significant other and with friends. [21:12] You likely know someone whose SO doesn't want them hanging out with other people, but most are fine with it as long as they have a closer relationship than the friends do. [21:13] So for me, having a very close relationshjip with a few deities doesn't mean I have to ignore or shun the others. [21:13] so there are some deities going through a major power trip for ages [21:13] [Owlhawk] Far be it for us to judge a Deity [21:13] I think the desires of their followers may affect that, but in general, sure. [21:14] These are really good thoughts on this subject. [21:14] *** RowanRavenhawk (Mibbit@bc242892.hsd1.va.5aa6454b.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Client Quit] [21:14] Part of viewing it as a relationship is knowing that your deities have to earn your respect just as much as you have to earn theirs. [21:15] The old question Penn Jillette and other atheists always ask: "What if your god told you to kill someone?" My answer: "I woupld tell that god togo f*** off and then get myself another god," [21:15] The difference for me between my relationships with the Gods and Spirits in Druidry and those I have had in other religions is that I have choice in what relationships I enter into and which ones I don't. As a Christian I never really felt I had any chose. [21:16] That is exactly the limit where I feel I can and must judge a Deity, Rob [21:16] choice [21:16] (Assuming it wasn't Loki or another trickster pretending to be my god, of course.) [21:16] Agreed Rob and this is what my thoughts on choice in these relationships looks like. [21:17] I think you can judge Deity...especially when it comes to which ones are right for you and your devotional practice and which aren't. Realize they have choice also. [21:17] I should go find my article about when my very Catholic ancestors removed the statue of the saint from their church and buried it, and threatened to install a new saint if he didn't make it rain. [21:18] [Owlhawk] I hesitate to judge Deity on some levels. Their actions over ages being one of those levels as well as their motivations [21:18] You may really want to follow a particular being and it just isn't going to happen because they don't want the relationship. [21:18] https://shininglakesgrove.wordpress.com/2010/01/31/honor-between-the-gods-and-the-folk-goes-both-ways/ [21:19] Good relationships with any being(s) are shared and entered into by both parties. [21:19] Hoping this won't flood the chat: [21:19] Let me start by telling you a story from my mother’s mother’s mother youth, back when she lived in northern Italy. She lived in a farming community, and there hadn’t been rain for a long time, and everyone’s crops were suffering. Everyone at the local church prayed and prayed to that church’s saint (wish I could remember which one it was, sorry Nuna!) and sti [21:20] and still no rain. So they removed the saint’s statue from the sanctuary and buried it in the church’s cemetery, and started looking around for a different saint to whom they could rededicate the church. Then the rain finally came, and they dug up the statue and put it back in the sanctuary, and that was that. [21:20] So even Catholics can have expectations of reciprocity. [21:22] In popular practice, surely, although the official theology would consider it too much hybris [21:22] Ascetism and (a skewed form of) detachment is expected [21:22] My grandparents were all about ignoring the official theology. >8) [21:22] that's what happens when churches get too large [21:23] I'm from the Azores archipelago, and the most defining form of Catholic cult we have was inspired by heretical Franciscan friars who found solace in the new found islands back in the days [21:23] Yay heretics! [21:23] when the hierarchy eventually caught on they had no choice but assimilate it [21:25] And it's about time for me to have dinner. I hope this helped you, Thot? [21:25] I think it has [21:25] Rob great blog article! [21:25] Thank you [21:26] Have fun, all! And thanks, Carrion! [21:26] I am going to have to get going as well, but it was really great chatting with all of you. [21:26] [Owlhawk] good night Rob [21:26] *** RobHenderson (Mibbit@5a79652d.hsd1.mi.5aa6454b.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:26] [Owlhawk] Good night Carrion [21:26] Night all [21:26] night Rob, night Carrion [21:26] *** CarrionMann (Mibbit@4c4ab62b.dynamic.9dcf6d32.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:29] 5 AM comes early so I am going to ash as well. Last one out, please lock up. [21:29] *** Rovena (Mibbit@6ca5ed5e.6ca5f0a0.72.170.imsk) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:30] night everyone [21:30] *** TrentDirenna (Mibbit@37bcff35.dhcp.trlk.ca.4e125616.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] [21:33] *** thehouseofthot (Mibbit@c2b935fa.dsl.ccd2c5b3.pt.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] *** Closed channel log for #adf at 8/18/2015 9:35:31 PM