*** Opened channel log for #adf at 12/10/2006 8:31:22 PM [20:31] I met the great-grandson of the Apache Cheif, Cocheece... gez, I've forgotten how to spell that [20:31] Where was that? [20:32] I know you told me but I forgot [20:32] anyway, the amazing similarities in the two cultural structures, actually.... I was comparing notes with this one lady I met over here (again Apache) [20:32] Oh, I met Jack Cochise in NC and also went to see him in SC while I lived over that way [20:32] Oh, yeah [20:33] then I met some of his relatives over here... they are definitely full-blooded Apache [20:33] I mean, the similarities... the clans/tribes sweat lodges, and things like that... [20:34] Sweat lodge, that sounds good [20:34] The Lacota were doing that in Indiana, would you believe? [20:35] [Aelcian] I agree.. It seems to me that these similarities are due to them both being somewhat tribal cultures for the most part. Striking similarites, and remarkable especially because of the geographic seperation. [20:36] keeping with the ancestry topic though... I have to admit that it happened thru a geneology quest for my mom that I became so immersed with the heritage I couldn't help but research and finally realize there was more ... [20:36] Did we discuss the kiva at one time. It is not a sweat lodge, right? [20:37] oh, indeed Aelcian... consider the similarities of the archeological finds ie petroglyphs and then over great distances and continents apart, finding similar drawings [20:37] rolls eys at Laery... heh... I'll bet you'll sure sweat sitting in a kiva *grins* [20:37] [Aelcian] Always a fascinating subject.. and LOTS of supporting information on the internet.. [20:38] Hey, what about the White Bullalo? [20:38] * Aelcian raises an eye brow.. [20:39] I just have such a tough time when they always come back up with this thing about the prehistoric or something people who were responsible for the Stone Henge... they can figure everything else, they need to just get with it! [20:39] Say, what? [20:40] You mean they need to figure out who built it? [20:40] The White Buffalo, well, wondering how much of a connection there is to do with animal representation in the Celtic culture... the Buffalo, isn't that like a leader and the white buffalo, hm, trying to remember what that is... like the great spirit [20:40] [Aelcian] Probably just an attempt to reconcile what we think we know with what is evidenced throughout history... [20:40] It wasn't the Kelts. [20:41] The White Buffalo was a Goddess or is a Goddess [20:41] I know it wasn't the celts.. what was the name they put on the people? [20:41] ??? [20:41] Picts? [20:42] I think the Picts were also Gaelic... [20:42] I find it very difficult to believe that the prehistoric types they generically describe, were able to perform such a feat without realizing, the archeology folks have some missing link they haven't put together yet [20:42] [Aelcian] It appears that the White Buffalo Calf woman was a sort of Lakota Goddess [20:43] (Lakota, thanks for the spelling) [20:43] hi [20:43] [Aelcian] Supporting info: http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/white_buffalo_calf_woman.html [20:43] [Aelcian] No problem [20:43] no, before the Picts ...the megaliths were predating all these [20:43] *** AdamJRoy (AdamJRoy@6c46bac3.dhcp.stpt.wi.4e125616.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [20:44] Hey Roy! [20:44] er.. sorry Adam [20:44] Evening All =) What have I missed? [20:44] absolutely the entire discussion on ancestors... we've moved on [20:44] just kidding [20:44] heh, no biggie, I respond to both [20:44] [Aelcian] lol... [20:44] we're just getting started [20:45] We're finding out who is Indian and who is not [20:45] I tried to pull that on Aelcian too... he didn't bite [20:45] * Aelcian grins all proud of himself and stuff [20:45] lol [20:45] well, some folks are having a time proving things that didn't make it to records [20:46] oooh, yeah. Paperwork only recently became popular [20:46] [Aelcian] Theres a whole lot of that (un-recorded stuff) to go around too... [20:47] I think ancestors is a good topic, but I'm all worn out.... do you become an ancestor after or before you die if you have descendants? [20:47] The farthest back I can trace my family is a drunken disordly in Cork Co., Ireland [20:47] Good question LOL [20:47] My vote is after [20:47] *** Linda (lindac5755@511fdb88.ph.ph.6ca6b017.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [20:47] [Aelcian] Good question. for the purpose of ADF worship I believe you have to pass on first.. any one else under that impression? [20:47] very kewl, we're related and that must've been one of my dad's folks [20:48] ancestors are anyone before [20:48] Hi guys [20:48] heya Linda [20:48] Cork county.. er, no I take that back.. one of my mom's folks [20:48] [Aelcian] lol [20:48] Slaps forehead!!! I NEVER THOUGHT YOU'D ARRIVE [20:48] heh [20:48] I got a Barret line, but can't remember where they came from in Ireland [20:49] My relatives, as far as I can tell, hailed from Donegal.... [20:49] The Doherty's [20:49] I got some Daugherty's [20:49] Well, Laery and I both found out thru geneology, that we each had ancestors who attended the Salem Witch Hunts... they were held and released [20:49] Pease [20:50] better than the alternative [20:50] there's ancestors and there's honored dead, only a few are both [20:50] good chance they Doherty's and Daugherty's may have been related... you know how they changed spellings along the way [20:50] [Aelcian] Wow, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone being released once being accused.. [20:50] Yeah, they even spelled it Darity [20:51] That's the way they pronounced it back then [20:51] [Aelcian] Darity is still pretty close to the proper pronunciation today in Ireland.. [20:51] the lady at the local irish cultural center pronounces it Door-Tee [20:51] all they had to do was abmit they worshiped the devil and give up their property [20:52] ugh, pronounciation. Hukt on foniks... [20:52] heck... yes, they did release them and I even read an online copy of the transcript where the officials made a proclamation of "ops! we err'ed, thus these people may now leave"... something paraphrased like that... only very long and early american/english misspellling [20:52] [Aelcian] hmmm... you learn something new everyday... that was it though... I can't hold anymore... lol [20:53] lol [20:53] Speaking of Ancestors.... I have spent the whole day creating a calendar for my brothers and sisters - made up of pictures of US, from our lives together, since we were kids [20:53] Hey Hi there avery! [20:53] * Aelcian just caught that it was his spelling error... lol [20:53] we aren't ancestors yet, but at some time, we will be [20:53] heh [20:54] That's cool Linda, I like that [20:54] I'm a dead end person, no kids [20:54] Same here [20:54] [Aelcian] You can still be considered an ancestor though.. [20:54] mind if we discuss the honored dead? something I need to know about if I want to become one [20:54] What do you call that? [20:54] bi-lateral ancestor...? [20:55] [Aelcian] It is my understanding that an ancestor can be anyone dead that you honor, including heroes and such.. regardless of blood relation.. though blood relation tends to be the most commonly thought of link.. [20:55] Yes, and there are also ancestors of place.... [20:56] incidentally ------------>pointing fingers... Laery is a geneologist, don't let him fool you :> [20:56] Um, doesn't this meeting start in 5 minutes from now? Or are we late? [20:56] [Aelcian] It starts at 9 technically... [20:56] which is 7 in AZ [20:56] 8 here in WI [20:56] [Aelcian] AZ is PAC time? [20:57] Genealogiests say we are all 50th cousins anyway. [20:57] no... we are mountain time in the winter, and pacific in the summer [20:57] [Aelcian] lol... funny but true.. [20:57] heh... it started for me at 6 p.m. 8 central? oh it was starting at 9 eastern :> [20:57] [Aelcian] Doh.. oh yeah.. forgot about mountain.. [20:57] Most of you peeps in AZ? [20:57] no... just me and Avery [20:57] Polarity is in NM [20:57] [Aelcian] FL... (Stationed here anyway) [20:58] how can you forget Mtn...we are here! making a lot of racket [20:58] (not to speak for her or anything) [20:58] [Aelcian] lol... I'm in Florida... that's how... lol [20:58] panarama city? [20:58] [Aelcian] Cape Canaveral. [20:58] oh, kewl [20:59] heh.... Linda, may I introduce you to Laery LaFae, the other local EDPG member here in my / our area in southern NM [20:59] Yeah, I figured that out :) [20:59] Hi Laery [20:59] Hi, back [21:00] I think the only other ADF person I know, is Kirk [21:00] Laery, maybe I present you to our future candidate for ArchDruid in a few more years or 10? [21:00] ..Linda [21:00] Yea! [21:00] I swear that would be so cool... [21:01] you'd better not let linda hear that, unless it's a compliment [21:01] lol [21:01] anyway, moving along and Linda, do you happen to remember the name of the people who built the Megaliths (or the name acheologists have given them)? [21:01] (Stone Henge?) [21:02] sure [21:02] which archelologists? [21:02] *** RavenMann (RavenMann@c8fb832e.ipt.6ca6a889.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [21:02] heh.. sorry, I don't know them by name [21:02] heya [21:02] Hi RavenMann [21:02] but that's a good question too [21:03] there is a name they put on the prehistory people who originated the megaliths [21:03] Hi all: It's actually Raven and Carrion [21:03] it was the Atlanteans, it was a docking bay for their interstellar space craft... [21:03] * Aelcian rolls eyes [21:03] lol [21:03] avery, Linda may be able to tell you how absolutely silly I am... just overlook me [21:03] That sounds good [21:03] Howdy Carrion [21:04] Hi Polarity [21:04] [Aelcian] I think that's the most original one I've heard Adam. lol [21:04] heh [21:04] heh... Adam [21:04] Adam and Roy [21:04] thank you [21:05] That's why I have such a hard time with the scholastic part of all this, I'm not all that interested in who built 'em, they're just neat [21:05] when I thought of ancestors, my mind started at the beginning... just wanted to know who were at the start more or less [21:05] [Aelcian] I can definately relate.. I have ADD... lol [21:05] There are several "henges" in England, did the same people make all of them? [21:06] naw Polarity, it's Adam and STEVE lol [21:06] get out ... [21:06] heh [21:06] How did they do that? [21:06] ancetors.... [21:07] good point. if we're talking about human ancestors, where do we start? [21:07] [Aelcian] Were do you want to start? [21:07] they were built by a race of giants, every culture's myths ive seen mentions giants [21:07] well, we could work backwards... or well, I was interested in the Noble ones... wait, are the noble ones part of the ancestors? [21:08] http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html [21:08] well, do we go back as far as cro-magnon? When did we start being people instead of another type of nature spirit? [21:08] Well, the Noble Ones are not really part of the Ancestors, however the Sidhe may be a confusing subject. [21:08] I really wondered about that... the giagantic statues and structures, so they could be seen from afar and the approaching enemy would be scared off because blimey if those were built by humans, they must be big and unbeatable! [21:09] [Aelcian] A kind of warning sign, huh? It would definately make me stop and think... [21:10] a show of power [21:10] and strength [21:10] er... that may be redundant [21:10] lol "let's go back to the village made of straw, they were tasty"... [21:10] and wine and bread [21:10] or detergent [21:10] [Aelcian] eck!... [21:11] Yeast came along and then civilization [21:11] [Aelcian] The detergent part.. [21:11] seriously? [21:11] hear, hear! let there be booze and crackers! [21:12] LOL [21:12] I was watching something on I think NG or Discv channel where they were showing the tribes who still worship the bones of their ancestors, mainly those of the warrior [21:12] and cheeze [21:12] Digging them up and feeding them? [21:13] We have a movie, called The Celts, that talks about that [21:13] [Aelcian] Here's a question... Does anyone use the ancestors as part of their personal practice or ADF worship? If you do, how do you interact with them.. [21:13] I do. [21:13] Hmmmm... good question I do too [21:13] This was very common among tribal societies. Feeding the bones of your ancestors is all part of Ancestor worship. [21:13] I have a strong relationship with both my mother and my grandmother [21:13] I believe I may have seen that too, but I'm not sure if this particular one was a spinoff showing ...these tribes still exist today [21:13] They are guides for me, intercessors, so to speak, with the otherworlds [21:14] i dig em up and play twister with them [21:14] they often accompany me in trancework [21:14] Grandma comes around a lot [21:14] My grandmother has been a guide for me in trancework for over 30 years now [21:15] We are very close to several of our Ancestors and they are around quite a bit in ritual and non ritual settings [21:15] And recently - at Wellspring - there was a special service to the ancenstors [21:15] you know that Nintendo Wii comercial.."your ancestors are weeping!"... that's how mine intereact with me [21:15] oops - ancestors [21:15] interesting... I did have a very clear dream as a teenager of my grandmother whom I never met... that has never left me [21:15] These Ancestors have acted as guides and teachers at times. [21:15] [Aelcian] So I take it in your case, Linda, your immediate ancestors mean alot to you? [21:16] At the Wellspring ritual, I contacted that being who was the result of my paternal line and maternal line separating [21:16] We honor both our ancestors of blood and those of spirit. [21:16] Yes, but not just my immediate ancestors... It just so happens that those two, I was very close to in life [21:16] [Aelcian] Sounds interesting Polarity.. [21:17] I also have an ancestral guide that I met on a trance journey [21:17] His name is Ryan.... he says he was a druid in the 17th century [21:17] [Aelcian] Raven, do you know who those that frequent your presence are? [21:17] he guides me on my path [21:17] That wasn't very long ago [21:18] No - I have been meaning to trace back, but I don't think his name was Ryan then... it could have been, though [21:18] Anybody a reincarnated Druid? [21:18] Well, I feel that I am fwiw [21:18] Aelcian, it's interesting to hear others say they are teachers and guides, because the grandmother who visited me, she was actually just sitting and talking to me about life and advising me about womanhood.. I was about 14 or 15 at the time [21:18] Absolutely, one David Lewis notorious Robin Hood type figure of the early 19th century Pennsylvania history. [21:18] i dont interact with any dead relatives that i knew in life, i interact with ones from way back, they help me to feel what the spiritual powers were like [21:19] [Aelcian] interesting avery, looks like your the odd experience out in this small group.. [21:19] my ancestors have a horrible sense of timing. Busy during ritual but more than willing to talk when my plate is full [21:19] [Aelcian] Isn't advising someone sort of guiding them, Polarity? [21:20] * Aelcian lol @ Adam [21:21] [Aelcian] Cool, Raven.. He isn't mischevious is he? lol [21:21] Laery and I have discussed some little bit about reincarnation... now that's definitely an interesting topic to me [21:21] What's the ADF stand on that? [21:21] same here Polarity, I'm a firm believer [21:22] Good question... I think it is individual, Laery [21:22] ok [21:22] [Aelcian] As are most Pagans of all varieties that I have any regular contact with... [21:22] My understanding is that the most we have gleaned is that the ancients believed in some sort of afterlife [21:23] He is absolutely mischievious until the chips are really down, then he is solid as a rock. [21:23] now if only I had a better grasp of the mechanics of reincarnation, I want to be a blond on the next trip [21:23] LOL, I see that in you, Raven [21:23] [Aelcian] Last I was aware we couldn't prove, though it was rumored, that our predecessors believed in reincarnation...Any thing new on that front? [21:24] [Aelcian] Figured as much when you said he was a Robin Hood type, Raven. [21:24] well, I'd make a guess that's what all the hubbub is about to do with the Phoenix [21:24] well, hubbub isn't the right word, but lack of any word... [21:25] the rising of the phoenix myths [21:25] And on top of all of that. His mother was a midwife and often accused of witchcraft. [21:25] [Aelcian] Gotcha.. [21:25] ok, now I'm lost (again:) [21:25] [Aelcian] Quite common from what I understand of those time, Raven.. [21:25] ooh, speaking of Phoenix, i have a fiction plug: Crown of Stars series by Kate Elliot. it's good [21:25] yeah, we are really jumping around here... [21:26] She use to hide him out in the hills. David's mother is also an interesting character. She ran a distillery. [21:26] *grin* Sounds like a great book! [21:26] [Aelcian] Oh gods, that could make for an interesting personality indeed.. [21:27] speaking of books, I did buy that one Ian mentioned on one of the lists... The Cunning folk (etc..very long title) [21:27] [Aelcian] If you miss something, you'll be able to read it online once I get the scripts edited... (I've got last months too..) [21:27] It is currently on our wish list for book buying. [21:27] they do mention the fact that mid-wives often bordered in areas that sometimes became of question if something didn't go right [21:28] Absolutely, Polarity. [21:28] *** KellyP (KellyP@14055a72.14055b2c.66.141.imsk) has joined #adf [21:28] greetings! [21:28] Heya Kelly [21:28] [Aelcian] Such as holistics and what some call "kitchen witchery," correct? [21:28] I looked on bookfinder4u.com and found the cheapest copy at half price for about $33 bucks at Strand.com or strandbooks.com out of NY [21:29] Hey KellyP!! [21:29] Hi Kelly. [21:29] what's the topic at hand? [21:29] in some of my training in magick i was lead to think that preparing for the afterlife is what a lot of the work in meditation and astral travel is for, so you can better navigate the afterlife or propell yourself to other planes [21:29] I see Ancestors, but are we on a particular thread? [21:29] yep... well, let me copy down the title here... the title is pretty self-explanatory [21:29] [Aelcian] The official topic is the ancestors... lol.. but we kinda wonder around it seems... [21:29] midwifery, reincarnation and distilleries [21:30] whoa ... sounds like a dangerous combination [21:30] [Aelcian] Yeah... especially all at ones.. [21:30] [Aelcian] er.. once.. [21:30] it was a pretty neat belief to work with [21:30] *** Unknown command: SCOLDS [21:30] lol [21:31] similar thoughts here avery, practice making perfect, and all that [21:31] and for a while i had the idea that the entire universe if your past life, like there's a point between lives where the soul either keeps dividing or merging with everything [21:32] [Aelcian] That'd definetly make sense avery... at least, I think it does.. [21:32] ...and we touched on bone worship of aboriginal people... [21:32] me too [21:32] this could possibly be topiced for: time travel [21:33] and there is one point where you're compleatly one with all [21:33] [Aelcian] sort of like the concept of Nirvana, then Avery? [21:33] my aunt has a similar theory, she calls it "the Big Glob of Soul" it makes it easy to see why you'll have 67 cleopatras in a crowd of 100, 'cuz she was broken up into a lot of little chunks [21:33] and that was fun to think about for a while [21:33] Title of that book: "Cunning Folks and Familiar Spirits: Shamanistic Visionary Traditions in Early Modern British Witchcraft and Magic" ~whew~.... all in one breath (by Emma Wilby) [21:33] *** Trista (Trista@6ca5ed19.14055ad8.74.132.imsk) has quit IRC [Quit: Trista] [21:34] Hey there Trista! [21:34] well, i think there are 67 cleopatras because there were 67 people who acted like cleopatra, she has been a role model for centuries [21:34] oh gosh! That sounds like a great book! I will have to add it to MY wish list. [21:35] [Aelcian] hmm.. I think I need to get the revolving door fixed... lol [21:35] It was one of three that Ian suggested... [21:35] lol you mean we can't just pin everything on some long-dead figure? personal responsibility sucks, avery =P lol [21:36] i'm sure we've all thought we were someone famous, but when looking at the more plain parts of their life you didnt feel like that person anymore [21:36] I hope I wrote down the other two titles... this one at that price, I thought would be 3 inches thick, but it's a little book chalk full of researched material, a textbook type of read [21:36] I believe that if I had a past life I was surely a dung-shoveler. [21:37] where did he post them, Polarity? (I'm not reading all the lists these days) [21:37] [Aelcian] be right back.. (goes afk for a few moments.) [21:37] heh [21:37] what was interesting was when someone did a past life reading of me... they didn't realize I'd had some intuitive feelings before, being connected to the country and culture the person mentioned about me [21:37] *** RavenMann (RavenMann@c8fb832e.ipt.6ca6a889.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] [21:38] for me, the real test if someone thinks they were a famous person is if they can remember personal details about that persons life, and i think one of the most personal details are what it was like to have a child and that person's best orgasm, which are certainly things i'd remember of my current life [21:39] you know, Linda, I'll have to think on it awhile... or you could write to him and give him that one title, he'd probably remember the other two titles easier than me finding the list... lemme check one of my folders here brb [21:40] isn't it theorized or said, that some reincarnations are from the same family line? "some" [21:40] I'm not sure I'd want to remember my past lives, it's crowded enough in my head as it is [21:41] :) [21:41] I'm comfortable with that idea. You're re-using similar physical materials, why not spiritual ones as well? [21:41] I have heard that it doesn't really matter if we remember them or not, that the lessons they would teach us are duplicated in this life's events [21:43] *** LaeryLefae (LaeryLefa@10abdd47.176.141.182.Dial1.Phoenix1.b1da02e4.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: LaeryLefae] [21:43] hey, where is everyone going?? [21:44] *** LaeryLefae (LaeryLefa@10abdd47.176.141.182.Dial1.Phoenix1.b1da02e4.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [21:44] We're losing people! Man the pumps! [21:44] *** LaeryLefae (LaeryLefa@10abdd47.176.141.182.Dial1.Phoenix1.b1da02e4.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [Client Quit] [21:44] *chuckle* [21:45] So, how many have items on their personal altar related specifically to ancestors? [21:45] [Aelcian] oh dear... the revolving door is acting up again.. [21:45] He may have lost connection... this area over here lately has really been bogged down and overworked, insuffiecient amount of equipment for the population [21:45] [Aelcian] lol [21:45] *** RavenMann (RavenMann@bb40b690.ipt.6ca6a889.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [21:45] I have ancestor dolls on my altar [21:46] are you asking how many of ours? [21:46] One represents my matriarchal line and the other represents that one I spoke of earlier - the hinge where my maternal and paternal lines split [21:46] I got ancestor stuff on my "busy" altar: a few candle holders, a figure, a Rapanui (Easter Island) bobblehead... [21:46] Well, sorry folks we thought everyone just got quiet and then we got thrown off line:) [21:46] [Aelcian] We have an actual ancestors altar.. It normally doesn't get much action except around anniversaries and Samhain.. [21:47] We both have sections of our shrines set up specifically for our ancestors. [21:47] That's a good idea, actually. I may do one of those in the future [21:49] I have been considering doing something to include them more directly but have been lacking really great ideas. [21:49] *** Beth (bsavage@7665e490.bflony.d75a346f.net.hmsk) has joined #adf [21:49] [Aelcian] It works out for us pretty well, as my wife has a strong connection to some of her ancestors. The altar is full on samhain because of her.. I don't know a great deal about my ancestors except those that I have interacted with in a trance state.. though they are reluctant to identify themselves at this point. [21:49] Sorry to be late! [21:49] Heya Beth, fifty lashes with a wet noodle for tardiness [21:50] Owie! [21:50] [Aelcian] Perfectly fine.. Time zones can be tricky when setting up a chat.. lol [21:50] Ooooooh ... sticky pasta slaps. [21:50] Hi Beth!! [21:50] lol [21:50] Hi Beth. [21:50] So are we actually talking about the official topic??? [21:50] sometimes [21:50] I actually put my grandmother's favorite picture on my altar.. it's the bust of Christ [21:50] [Aelcian] When the topic meanders back to it.. lol [21:51] [Aelcian] For you, I assume it [21:51] i am an ancestor, i know because if the ancestors are those who have gone before then the me that was in the kitchen a minute ago has gone before, to bring me to my desk where i am now, that person isn't there anymore and now i'm a different person [21:51] He's an accessible ancestor, for sure [21:51] [Aelcian] is a connection to her, so my guess is that it qualifies, Polarity.. :) [21:51] no one else in the family seemed to value that picture ... it was like a major treasure to me because I know how much it meant to her... she was/is really connected to it. [21:52] * Aelcian nods [21:52] and that's the important part, for sure [21:54] My altar is also my sideboard which contains pictures of my current and future ancestors/family. [21:54] My scrying crystal was handed down from my great-grandmother, I'm not sure how often she used it, but just knowing how long its been around helps to put me in the right mind-set [21:54] well, actually, Linda... couldn't you elaborate about the several selves we are... that seems to be what avery is experiencing from the kitchen and back [21:54] :) [21:54] I *could* [21:55] [Aelcian] Adam, I feel a strong connection to old things as well.. is it like that with you or is it more the connection to your great-grandmother? [21:55] :> [21:55] one thing i feel that distant ancestors can help us with is to activate old dna, dna that was strong in their time but not today [21:55] [Aelcian] (Uh oh.. I feel a psychology lesson coming on in refrence to avery.. lol) [21:55] Could you expand on that, Avery? What do you mean by "activate" DNA? [21:56] *** Polarity4 (Polarity@774bfb7e.dhcp.almg.nm.4e125616.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [21:56] Old things in general. It's seen a lot over the years, and while I never met her, I can still learn from her life through that. One valuable lesson: Don't drop glass lol [21:56] wb Polarity [21:56] dang! I lost what was being said... shoot [21:56] bang! [21:56] right in the middle of what avery said... [21:57] dna... [21:57] activating latent DNA, I kinda missed it [21:57] if your ancient relitives lived under conditions where they had to develop, say, a heightened sense or awareness... [21:57] ...but for many generations they lived in the city, that awareness may not be active [21:57] because it had not been in use [21:58] *** Ping delay from AdamJRoy: 0.250 seconds [21:58] so those ancient ancestors can help to activate it [21:58] as a trait in you [21:58] sort of like "why bother with telepathy. I can use a phone?" [21:59] [Aelcian] That's what I'm getting, Adam. [21:59] *** Polarity (Polarity@774bfb7e.dhcp.almg.nm.4e125616.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] [22:00] well, not sure where that particular statement was going, but I know it brought to mind for example, one time when I was on a hike up in the mountains here... I noticed something under the overhanging bushes, so I knelt down, moved the bushes over and spotted what looked like a pounding stone (for meal or something)... I touched it, looked around and got a sense of seeing several of the stones all around everywhere once again being [22:00] it would be handy. heightened senses would surely lead to baked goods quicker [22:00] [Aelcian] lol.. and quicker devourment cuz we would be able to smell them better.. [22:01] Ancestors: The Route to Gaining your Holiday Pounds [22:01] I don't see how the use of a physical trait wouldn't be used. I can carry things I don't use or want (such as propensity towards diseases), but I still have it. Spiritual stuff is different. [22:01] i dont invite my ancestors to dinner [22:02] by the time I wrote all that, I guess someone either typed or copied and pasted what you said avery, but I got it... thanks [22:02] at least not the living ones [22:02] For me, Ancestors apparently left behind their propensity for High Blood Pressure and Cholesterol [22:03] [Aelcian] I see your point beth... Although I do know that the human body compensates for things like blindness by heightening other senses.. [22:03] In another forum, I posed the question of whether your ancestry led to your choice of hearth cultures. [22:04] true enough. smoking has destroyed my sense of taste and smell, but i can spot a hottie from a mile away [22:04] How is it for the folks in here? Did your ancestry play a critical role in your choice? [22:04] [Aelcian] To some degree in both personal practice and ADF hearth culture for me, Kelly.. [22:04] I'm surprised you got it- somehow my sentance got all mixed up. As for blindness and other heightened senses, that's not true- although you would certainly find yourself relying on and paying more attention to other senses. [22:05] which is a reason i practice the old ways, sometimes i feel it unlocks abilities or consciousness i didnt know was there [22:05] I think one of the interesting things brought out in the book I mentioned, is how heightened awareness with the connection in nature occurs when you're working so hard to survive in it (paraphrased, more or less) and that our current generations are drifting away and dulled senses as a result [22:05] I rely on sight, but because I do so I tend to not pay attention to other senses unless it's something powerful. [22:06] [Aelcian] Beth, I think I may have been better represented by saying that senses become better developed, rather than heightened.. [22:06] Not so far Kelly. celtic ancestors were passed out, but Greek gods were hammering hard [22:06] Polarity, what book was that? I came in late. [22:06] I agree with you 100%, Aelcian. [22:06] *** RavenMann (RavenMann@bb40b690.ipt.6ca6a889.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: RavenMann] [22:07] From the other forum close to 100% of the responses indicated that ancestry played a part. [22:07] * Aelcian hands the highest ping award to raven on the way out the revolving door.. [22:07] ahhh, see: development. That's a good word [22:08] For me it was a toss up since my ancestors covered most of northern and western Europe. [22:08] true, steroids can heighten strength, working out can develop it [22:08] [Aelcian] I have a near 50/50 split between Scotland and Ireland, and North America.. lol [22:08] bingo [22:09] My ancestors had a small part in my choosing my hearth culture [22:09] What would you defined as a "small part"? [22:09] I do have Celtic roots on my maternal side, but my paternal side is all slavic [22:09] yet, I have no desire to worship in a slavic way - although I have some curiosity about it [22:09] Beth, the book was suggested by Ian and is: "Cunning Folk and Familiar Spirits: Shamanistic Visionary Traditions in Early Modern British Witchcraft and Magic" by Emma Wilby, sussex academic press [22:09] Excellent. [22:10] small part, because I believe my interest was because of more than my ancestry [22:10] Thanks. [22:10] I think it would be interesting to study the factors that lead folks to a choice of hearth cultures. [22:10] I already had an interest in Arthurian legends from work I had done with archetypes [22:10] Linda, I'm curious about the Slavic culture too.. yet I have no known ancestry [22:11] *** KellyP is now known as KellyP|afk [22:12] Are you Slovak Slavic, Linda? [22:12] I don't know. My grandfather was from Lithuania and my grandmother was from Poland [22:12] [Aelcian] I've noticed that sometimes people choose hearth cultures that better resonate with them instead of because they are ancestrally connected. [22:13] something began to draw to me about Spain, Italy and France early on; then later after realizing my Pagan path, and questions to my mother about geneology, it started to make sense to do with leanings in my ancestry, though at some point it departed from records into theory. [22:13] [Aelcian] hmm.. Interesting, Polarity. [22:14] heh, paperwork once again giving way to what makes sense =) [22:14] [Aelcian] Isn't that the way it normally works.. [22:14] well, sometime before I became aware of my paganism, I was already interested in reading about migrations of humankind [22:16] yeah, migratory beasts. What on earth drove us to start building cities? [22:16] agriculture [22:16] [Aelcian] Tired of foraging/scavaging? [22:16] *** rodmacpherson (pas@6fa02e27.tor.eff9e159.ca.hmsk) has joined #adf [22:16] irrigation [22:16] sewers [22:16] Change in climate. [22:16] Hey, Rod! [22:16] hi [22:16] ahh, yeast. okies =) [22:17] maybe it was the gods' idea [22:17] to build cities [22:17] *** Aelcian is groberts2@6ca5ed3c.93.205.68.cfl.res.14056255.com.hmsk (Another ViRC 2.0 user) [22:17] *** Aelcian is on channels: @#adf [22:17] *** Aelcian is on server nebula.sorcery.net (Nebula.. Exploring the event horizon.) [22:17] *** Aelcian has been idle for 1 minute 26 seconds [22:17] *** Aelcian is logged in as: Aelcian [22:18] and naturally, to answer the earlier question I think Beth or Kelly asked... about how much or did my ancestral background have to do with my choice of hearth culture... and decisions that have brought me forth, I did learn about an ancestor (earlier mentioned on this chat) who was accused at the Salem Witch hunts... it really pissed me off about things I learned of the oppression in the name of "other beliefs" and for "the all good [22:18] *** Unknown command: NODS [22:18] * Aelcian nods [22:19] *** KatKassouf (KatKassou@2b5b9f34.neo.res.14056255.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [22:19] Heya Kat [22:20] alrighty, I gotta tear myself away. Pleasure to type at you. Aelcian, thanks for keeping this alive, go you. [22:20] heh [22:20] *** AdamJRoy (AdamJRoy@6c46bac3.dhcp.stpt.wi.4e125616.com.hmsk) has left #adf [22:20] later [22:20] op [22:21] [Aelcian] wow.. didn't even get a chance to reply.. lol Must have been in a hurry.... [22:21] yeah, you gotta grab it in a snap [22:21] :> [22:22] *** Ping delay from rodmacpherson: 0.593 seconds [22:22] Did I miss the entire chat? [22:22] well, the migrations of the people seems to me, a matter of survival [22:23] well, it's still sort of happening [22:23] oh no... not at all, we just got started awhile ago :> [22:23] (I mean, the chat) [22:23] heh [22:23] linda *chuckles* [22:23] [Aelcian] Don't worry, Kat.. I'm logging the whole thing... [22:23] oh gads! [22:23] [Aelcian] Don [22:23] [Aelcian] ter.. [22:24] [Aelcian] er.. [22:24] I'd better be nice then [22:24] [Aelcian] don't worry.. they'll be editted before being posted... ;) [22:24] Are names changed to protect the not-so-innocent? [22:25] [Aelcian] Is that a request? LMAO [22:25] ;) [22:26] so, in the matter of survival and being so close to nature, heightened or whatever term works, being able to deal with things, the ancestors seemed to have relied on otherworldly matters (in so many words better written by someone who knows what they're talking about :) heh [22:27] I was "attempting" to summarize something I think was going on along the way [22:28] so, Avery, you said something about "The Gods" might have had something to do with it? or did I get that out of context? [22:28] it was what made us build cities [22:28] [Aelcian] Sounds about right to me.. On a sidenote to the otherworldly thing, I was surprise to learn of the propensity for sacred wells, and oracles and such in ancient Britain.. Leaving big decisions to such devices seems to have been quite common during the period.. [22:28] maybe the gods told us to [22:29] or taught us to [22:29] maybe people were too scattered [22:30] and much earlier on in the chat, a few of us were saying something about the similarities between cultures that are continents away from one another [22:30] a lot of folklore has gods who taught the people skills like agriculture or smithcraft or medicine [22:30] practices, art, and I guess even when looking into languages [22:31] What were the ideas about why this was? (similarities between cultures) [22:31] so yeah, maybe the people werent getting the help they needed from each other so the gods came in [22:31] *** KellyP|afk is now known as KellyP [22:31] [Aelcian] I'm not sure that any were tossed out, beth, if that's what you were asking.. [22:31] and well, the survival portion, being so closely tied into nature [22:32] some legends have say a flood myth or some other destruction and the people were all lost and then the gods came and helped out, taught skills and stuff [22:32] or you have the need to survive [22:32] Yes, it was Aelcian. Thanks. [22:33] Interesting. There are legends proclaiming the Gods arrived _after_ a destructive event? [22:33] [Aelcian] np [22:33] um, can someone concisely explain how all this ties into the ancestors? and what we've been jumping around talking about [22:33] yeah [22:34] No [22:34] because I am far from skilled with concise tools :> [22:34] [Aelcian] I know that in the epic of Gilgamesh, specifically the flood account, (as well as the bible), the builder of the vessel was instructed by a divine source on the proper dimensions, materials and construction of the vessel in which they were to ride.. This in both cases occured before the disaster though.. [22:35] some before [22:35] some after [22:35] or both [22:36] some of the after ones were mediteranian [22:36] but i'd have to look up the exact names and references [22:37] *** Polarity (Polarity@774bfb7e.dhcp.almg.nm.4e125616.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [22:38] [Aelcian] The latest thread we have been following is attempting to reconcile the possible reasons that a predominately nomadic organization (in this case assuming all of humankind was at one point or another) would settle a location and build cities. Not directly associated with ancestors as they relate to practice in ADF, but related to the overall origins of our ancestry. [22:38] [Aelcian] Concise enough? lol. I, of course failed to include all but the last thread... lol [22:39] *** Polarity4 (Polarity@774bfb7e.dhcp.almg.nm.4e125616.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] [22:39] *** Polarity4 (Polarity@774bfb7e.dhcp.almg.nm.4e125616.com.hmsk) has joined #adf [22:39] hello? [22:40] [Aelcian] here.. the revolving door get ya? [22:40] I am about to be tossed permanently for the night, I'm afraid.. the connection in this area sux lately [22:40] "Guns, Germs, and Steel" is a readable (and now watchable) account of inequalities among cultures. It starts by looking at the change from hunter/gatherers to agriculture. It's not perfect and the film brushes over some major issues, but it's a good basic resource. [22:40] [Aelcian] did you get that last? [22:40] someone else just complained to me about it who lives here [22:40] an interesting survey would be to see which periods in history did the people have more contact with the spirit world, or the otherworlds. [22:40] [Aelcian] (The attempt at a concise description? [22:42] *** Polarity (Polarity@774bfb7e.dhcp.almg.nm.4e125616.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] [22:42] it seems our post modern industrial era is having a time, is in awe when connecting (as I am remaining connected:) [22:42] like african tribes and south american tribes, some are way into the spirit worlds, getting possessed every saturday, and there's homeless armless people in india who zip in and out of meditation and prayer all the time [22:44] and like the shinto samari who are great warriors but are basiclly required to be connected to spirit [22:44] well, it's been interesting, but I'm going to fold before this connection folds me for the night. I'd like to now where to read the chat dialogue later. [22:45] [Aelcian] It will be posted on the adf IRC page, Polarity [22:45] [Aelcian] as soon as its editted [22:45] they've carried down the old ways [22:46] a deep passion, drive, and strength [22:46] descipline [22:47] have a good night [22:47] [Aelcian] you too.. [22:47] and be well... [22:47] 'Night all. [22:47] *** Polarity4 (Polarity@774bfb7e.dhcp.almg.nm.4e125616.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: Polarity4] [22:47] [Aelcian] G'night beth... please talking to you .. [22:47] quit [22:48] Heh, let me try that again. Hope to see you next time, Aelcian. [22:48] *** Beth (bsavage@7665e490.bflony.d75a346f.net.hmsk) has quit IRC [] [22:48] [Aelcian] Well, folks, looks like were winding down... The next chat will be posted as soon as I figure out the best date for it.. [22:49] [Aelcian] Anyone have any questions for me? [22:49] Are they usually on a Sunday night? [22:49] are you going to pantheacon? [22:49] [Aelcian] They will probably be for the most part.. Why do you ask Kat.. bad day for you? [22:50] what exactly gets edited? all the dirty stuff? [22:50] No... a good day actually. [22:50] [Aelcian] Unfortunately, no, avery.. My job in the navy gets in the way of things like that.. [22:50] [Aelcian] Good, Kat.. I will probably shoot for the same time as well... [22:51] *** rodmacpherson (pas@6fa02e27.tor.eff9e159.ca.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: Changing servers] [22:51] Question.... what is Pantheacon? )and where is Pantheacon?) [22:51] [Aelcian] And I edit the things like truly off topic things (such as completely unrelated sillines, though silliness related to the topic may stay) and the server tags and such that get logged too.. [22:52] answer: http://www.ancientways.com/pantheacon/ [22:52] Wow, it's a webpage? [22:52] [Aelcian] lol... [22:52] Pantheacon is a big pagan festival held in San Jose in February [22:53] It's really a great time! [22:53] Thank you Linda! [22:53] Yes, it is sponsored by Ancient Ways, which is what that website is [22:53] [Aelcian] On the other side of the US from me.. maybe it will fall during the time I'm in San Diego next year... [22:53] Aha. [22:54] It's Presidents' Day weekend [22:54] how long have you been in the navy [22:54] I'm in Ohio, so don't think it is an option to attend. [22:54] [Aelcian] 7 1/2 yrs [22:54] Heh. I am in AZ, and I go to things in Ohio ;) [22:54] like Summerlands, and Wellspring (which is really in NY) [22:55] sometimes you can get really good airfare [22:55] [Aelcian] I can't make those unless i specifically take leave to go to them... [22:55] when you first join, or after you sign up, do they hold a big party for the new people [22:55] How do you manage camping events when you travel that far? [22:55] I have big duffle bags that I check [22:55] at least Pantheacon is in a hotel [22:55] Good. I was planning to same strategy. [22:55] [Aelcian] Nope.. they just cramp you in a room with all the other suckers and fly you off to your first commands.. [22:56] Now I just have to get my schedule to cooperate. [22:56] :) [22:56] I tend to build my whole year of paid time off around ADF festivals [22:56] [Aelcian] Therein lies my constant battle with what I want and what I can do.. lol [22:57] I perform at the whim of the gov't and they seem to love the same weeks as pagans. [22:57] yeah, that's unfortunate [22:58] [Aelcian] I can definately sympathize kelly.. most holidays I am stuck on the boat on duty OR can't go anywhere due to travel restrictions... but, it was my choice to sign those papers.. [22:58] Well your service is much appreciated, Aelcian. [22:59] [Aelcian] Well folks, my wife is waiting on me to come to bed... and I gotta get up at 5:30 to go to work, so goodnight all... And thank you Kelly.. [22:59] gnight [22:59] Night! [23:00] *** Aelcian (groberts2@6ca5ed3c.93.205.68.cfl.res.14056255.com.hmsk) has quit IRC [Quit: Talk to you all next time, hopefully! May the Godden and the Ancestors bless you and your families.] *** Closed channel log for #adf at 12/10/2006 11:00:42 PM